wrote in message
...
there is no downside to keeping a low salt concentration in the pond.
some places
are lucky in that the water naturally has a low salt solution, so it is
always
important to check the water supply for salt levels BEFORE adding more
salt.
Ingrid

That depends on whether you are talking low levels found naturally, or
higher levels made artificially.

I agree you should always check levels of any agent before adding it to the
water!

Take a trip down memory lane to this previous posting:

From: "Gregory Young"
Subject: To salt or not to salt...
Date: Thursday, June 13, 2002 21:31 PM

wrote in message
...
The point is moot. I never use salt as a medication. I would never
recommend
elevated salt levels as a medication either. I use potassium permanganate
for
everything except ich, and then I use a formalin based medication. Since
Jo Ann
found that 10% peroxide (v/v) kills gyros and dacs as a 10 second dip, I
will use
that for those diseases.

Actually, I don't disagree with the approach you make in the above
statements.. although I don't think any of us should be encouraging folks
without some training to use an oxidant like PP, I would hope!!

I just treated an individual in the ED 2 weeks ago that was using it for
some type of septic cleaning (something I have not seen it used for in the
past), who had some of the powder, or as he described it "dust" get into his
left eye (he was wearing reg. glasses, not safety, nor did he have resp
precautions, although he did have skin precautions).

He told me as a sewage treatment engineer he "was an expert" in using PP..
yeah right, an "expert"...

Despite IMMEDIATE rinse by the patient, and subsequent direct irrigation by
myself, with over 2 liters of saline with normalization of his eye's pH, the
damage is continuing to progress.
I heard from the ophthalmologist I referred him to yesterday, that his
visual loss is progressing. How much he will lose, only time will tell, and
it will take months to fully appreciate the loss..
Unfortunately with caustics, damage continues despite surface
neutralization.

So, a word of caution to those planning to use this:

(yes I use it, and in fact just received another 5 gallons dry for use on my
"pond calls"... I never, ever,, mix it into solution outside, where there's
any chance that a stray breeze can aerosolize the PP)

: you must know exactly what you are doing, and use respiratory, eye and
skin precautions at all times!!

The cost of all my Koi (4 figures) is no where near the cost of either one
of my eyes, nor should it be yours.

I use a variety of agents, depending on the etiology:

Parasites:
Chilodinella: .6% salt or Malachite green/formalin
Costia: salt
Ich: Malachite green/formalin
Epistylus: salt
Trich: PP or Malachite green/formalin or .6% salt
Argulus: Malachite green/formalin or dimilin, etc.
Ergasilus: Dylox only
Gill & Skin flukes: PP is 1st choice or Chloramine-T
Hexamita, Protoopalina, Sironucleaus & Trichomanas: Metronidazole (PP or
H2O2 won't work on any of these)

Bacteria:

I use ONLY antibiotic injection therapy, as:

1) dumping antibiotics into the pond encourages drug resistant disease
strains, that have been shown in the medical literature to transfer drug
resistance to fish handlers (commercial usually)
A classic example is drug resistant Mycobacteria; "fish handlers disease";
etc.
It is bad husbandry, as it effects our environment!

2) Even baths of diseased fish in an antibiotic containing tank (much less
alone pond exposure) don't get significant levels into fish tissue to allow
them to combat disease, so baths don't have anywhere near as high of a
success rate as injections.

3) Antibiotic feeds require the diseased fish to eat enough, to get
significant plasma and tissue levels. When any organism is sick, appetite is
usually one of the first things to go, as we all know from personal
experience I am sure!, so...

4) I do injection of antibiotics only!

You can argue SQ (SC) vs IP injection. I prefer the latter which has higher
sustained plasma and tissue levels, but I know the anatomy, and won't wind
up puncturing the gut. SQ (SC) is less risky in lesser trained hands.

For people that are not trained/comfortable with the above get your local
fish experienced vet/ other experienced fish handler to work with a vet for
antibiotic administration.

My fish come from people use salt in their growing on ponds. I will
continue to use
salt (0.1%) as support and a 3% dip to strip off the slime coat.
But mostly, I am going to make sure to maintain high water quality, use
the highest
quality food, use proper quarantine procedures for new fish and plants,
keep
"wildlife" outta my ponds and keep stress levels low so I dont have to
treat my fish
with ANYTHING.

Again we agree almost 100% there (except for the .1% and stripping of the
slime coat comments)

0.1% salt in the water is specifically for maintaining a healthy
immune system since it turns over the slime coat which has secreted
antibodies and
other anti-microbial proteins in it.

Although the slime coat has been shown to have IgA antibodies in it, just
like human and mammalian nasal secretions, there have been no studies to
date, that I, or my fish knowledgeable vet. colleagues are aware of, that
have shown ANY benefit in disease resistance by their presence. (which is
the same for humans. Why IgA is secreted therefore is as yet unknown,
although there are lots of theories)

The slime coat is a secretory function of fish, and its production increases
in response to stressors of multiple types (infections, osmotic changes,
noxious chemicals, irritants, etc to name just a few).

Some of the thickest slimes coats I have seen over the years are in diseased
fish, so I would not want to equate a thick coat to a healthy fish!

Fish without a functional immune system cannot be cured with any kind of
medication.
The purpose of medications is to lower the number of pathogens and then
the host
immune system deals with what is left.


I agree with that statement 100%.

If people read my original posting, they would notice I replied with dosing,
etc of salt, as well as type of salt, etc to use.

I was being objective in my answer. As part of that answer, I stated a major
reason not to use routine salt as well.

If you never use salt to treat, but rather want to use stronger
drugs/oxidants, (which you and I know stress the already diseased and
stressed fish much more than a salt bath), then the encouragement of disease
resistance organisms is of less import.

I can not tell you the number of burned gills I have seen on necropsy by the
use of PP in ponds, based on "calculated volumes" of the ponds.
(Now there might be another salt indication, using salt addition, with known
quantity of salt, measuring pre and post addition salt levels in the water
to calculate the actual pond system gallons (including pumps, pipes,
filters, etc, etc)).

When people talk about the benefits of salt, and start quoting references
that talk about protection against nitrites (which is true), etc, that
hedges the real issue.

The real issue is that salt is debated (emotionally usually), because there
are still NO data (and read this answer fully please) that prove ROUTINE
salt use has ANY proven benefit in ornamental fish (Koi and Goldfish)
management, outside of 1) disease treatment and 2) protection (which should
be temporary) against nitrite toxicity.

Furthermore, the latter should only be relevant in a cycling pond, as the
presence of nitrites in cycled ponds, indicate a problem that needs
(immediate usually) correction, instead of merely masking it by the presence
of added salt that will help the fish tolerate a higher nitrite level, for a
longer period of time.

Ingrid

happy ponding,
Greg





Now back to the present..
Happy ponding,
Greg