Ingrid:
The immunology I was relaying came not from my medical school Immunology,
but rather my Marine biology Microbiology/Immunology studies back in the
70's.
I have since then taken additional training, and have had the chance to talk
to fish knowledgeable vets. I don't claim to have all the answers on fish,
but I do know where to get information when I need it.
2 of the best I resources I would refer you to are DVMs. Eric Johnson, and
Sandra Yosha (also a PhD).
All secretory antibodies, as I am sure you are aware, derive from plasma
sources, in fish as well as mammals. To quote your reference below:
"Antibodies found in secretory fluids are macroglobulins and it is suspected
that they may derive from serum exudation". Again, "suspected", not
confirmed.
I will try to get some references on more recent fish immunological studies
to refer you to, which are much more recent than our previous training
(yours and mine), and the references you quoted (late 80's), (which BTW I do
appreciate your taking the time to do), that confirm the presence of the
immunoglobulins.
I trust my above vet. resources. They have far more training (more recent
than my marine bio anyway) than I. If I had more time, I would certainly be
able to search out and pull each article, but I have a full plate these
days.
I will see what Eric has.
If you think believe it's IgM, and I IgA, that we won't apparently settle
here today. I think however you should agree that there are no studies, to
date, that confirm (not suggest.. there have been previous studies
suggesting yeah as well as nea) there is any protective role of
immunoglobulins in the fish slime coat.
My training you are quite right was dealing with human physiology and
immunology (plus the marine bio. I just referenced). I am quite sure your
immunology was human based also, and not fish.
The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I doubt your immunological
training or abilities, any more than your disagreeing with me on medical
issues (ie proper use of antibiotics, safety of certain chemicals, heat
illness, etc) means you doubt mine. At least that is my assumption.
Greg
PS I will try and resurrect some of our discussions from last year, once
again. Will see if Outlook works this time!


wrote in message
...
Gregory:
Your immunology class in med school talked about human immunology. We are
not
talking about human immunology, we are talking fish. They dont have IgA,
IgG, IgE.
If you dont want to believe me (despite the fact that I am an
immunologist), then
read Stoskopf (pp. 150-159) or the primary literature. In different fish
there are
monomeric, tetrameric and pentameric forms of IgM like antibody and it is
serum
antibody AND it is secreted. It is IgM by virtue of its mu heavy chain,
not because
it is cell bound.
"Despite the absence of IgG in fish, protective humoral responses occur.
In general,
IgM is more efficient than IgG in complement activation, opsonization,
neutralization
of viruses, and aggutination. (Tizard, 1987) ... In teleosts,
antigen-specific
antibodies occur in the mucus as IgM (St. Louis-Cormier et al. 1984; Lobb,
1987)" "
Fish mucus has been found to contain natural antibodies, lysozyme, and
bacteriolysins".
Now, recent literature are renaming some of the antibodies, "i" and D.
"Antibodies
found in
secretory fluids are macroglobulins and it is suspected that they may
derive from
serum exudation. " http://contra.biology.und.ac.za/comp/chapter5g.htm
http://www.vet.uga.edu/mmb/dickerson/research.html
"Model of antibody mediated cutaneous immunity against Ichthyophthirius.
Theronts (shown at top) bore through mucus and invade the epithelium of
immune fish.
Antibodies in the skin and/or mucus bind to the surface immobilization
antigens on
the parasite, causing either immobilization and cell death (at high
antibody
concentrations), or exit from the host (at antibody concentrations that
are
subthreshold for immobilization). The source of antibodies present at the
surface of
the fish is conjectural. They may rise locally from lymphocytes within the
skin, or
be produced elsewhere and enter the epithelium through some, as yet,
unidentified
pathway."
Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
Ingrid:
You are mixing up serum and secretory antibodies
In the serum are found numerous antibodies, IgM (acute), IgG
(convalescent),
etc, etc
In the secretory coat ('slimelayer") are PRIMARILY IgA
There are no studies that I have seen that show the role of secretory
antibodies in living cold water ornamental fish.. none. They have been in
vitro tests, which have generated many hypotheses, which have not been
confirmed to date, hence the continuing discussions on this topic.



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