Here is final part, part 3 of response
Greg


wrote in message
...

Snip:

There is no data about use of salt prophylactically you are willing to
accept. Rod
Farlee has posted all kinds of data, the fact that koi breeders use it,
and Jo Ann's
teacher Dr. Ruth Floyd who advocates using salt .. not to mention that Jo
Ann
advocates its use. And she most certainly is an expert. Ingrid

I have discussed prophylactic salt with Rod, and disagree with him, but only
on that point. He is not here to rebutt me, so I don't wish to dispute him,
except to say the data he quoted was from studies done on aquaculture of
catfish, very different from our ornamental GF/Koi. If Rod/anyone else shows
validated data that continuous prophylactic use of salt has benefits that
outweigh its disadvantages, I will be the first to say I am wrong, and
recommend it to all, in the classes I teach, in my newsgroup posts, etc. I
have presented why I feel it is not a good practice, based on proven fact
(impact on plants, impact on disease resistance). Those are validated.

I do have ample text saved from when he and I discussed this subject, but
again don't want to post a discussion when one of the parties is absent to
comment. That is not fair practice..

Rod is a chemist and certainly has a far better understanding of basic
chemistry than I. I respect his knowledge in that arena.
I teach Physiology however, which as I am sure you know, meters the effects
of the "laws of chemistry" on living organisms and their internal systems,
(among many other things). Living things, fish in this point, do not just
behave like the osmotic membranes we all are familiar with from high
school/college days. They have active systems that modify their interactions
with their environment.
Again there is a debate, as no one has taken the time/effort to
scientfically validate this use of salt in ornamental fish.
I have pointed out numerous drawbacks to it's use, ranging from inhibition
of aquatic plants, to the development of salt tolerant parasites (anectdotal
data agreed, as there are no controlled studies, nor will there be without
funding that is unlikely to occur) since the late 90's, which as it happens
first came in on fish imported from Japan, where the growers maintained .3%
year round salt in their ponds. Strange coincidence?? Maybe, maybe not..

You have referred to Jo Ann in many of your posts. You say she is an expert.
How do you define expert in her case? Is it because of her training?
If so, am I an expert, because of my current practice, my past training in
medical school, or my past training in marine biology?
If based on experience, would I be because I have maintained large (earth
bottom) and ornamental fresh water ponds for the past 20 plus years?
How about if I wrote a book on water gardening/raising Koi?

I will say to all readers here and now I do not claim to be an expert, nor
will I ever make such a claim! I may certainly have more knowledge than
some, but I will have less than others.
Those "experts" I have gotten to know professionally, and otherwise, who are
forthwith, will be the first to tell you how little they really know about
the areas in which they are judged as expert. Science has only begun to
scrape the surface of knowledge this world has to offer. One thing I have
found is that man often fails to improve on what nature provides, sometimes
with his "improvements" having dire consequences.
I took the KHA class offered last year through the Associated Koi Clubs of
America. The class was designed to offer state of the art (current) training
in designing and maintaining an environment for successfully raising and
maintaining healthy cold water ornamental fish. The class also taught
diagnosis and treatment of diseased fish.
I took it because I wanted to benefit from the experience of nationally
known and respected veterans in the field, knowing I would get some
additional pearls of wisdom. The course met my expectations. I went in as a
student, not relaying my previous background to a soul (except now via this
NG Jan knows!), as I felt that would either intimidate my lab mates, or my
role would change more into teaching and less as a student.
The course was designed by folks trained in chemistry, nutrition, disease,
and disease management, to name a few. (including professionals such as MDs,
DVMs, PhDs, etc).
The course is being continuously updated as new data becomes available, and
more than likely will require yearly continuing education, along with
practice, to remain certified.
Are KHAs then considered experts, based on their training?
As most can figure out, I have a problem with that title, (esp. if I am
labelled with it!) I would rather say, based on the experience of someone
who trained as this (theoretical), or has done this for x years (practical),
in the absence of data to the contrary, I would accept their advice, etc.
Greg



"Gregory Young" wrote:
although I don't think any of us should be encouraging folks
without some training to use an oxidant like PP, I would hope!!
I just treated an individual in the ED 2 weeks ago
Although the slime coat has been shown to have IgA antibodies in it,
I can not tell you the number of burned gills I have seen on necropsy by
the
use of PP in ponds, based on "calculated volumes" of the ponds.
because there
are still NO data (and read this answer fully please) that prove ROUTINE
salt use has ANY proven benefit in ornamental fish (Koi and Goldfish)



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.