On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:25:53 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote:
dave weil wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote:
It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in
the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't
they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the
Climber.
Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush
and Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the
blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the
only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the
canes, which is why I thought it was odd.
And rearranging a bit
There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner
at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8
years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner
in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and
lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous
for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws
out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest
of the growing season.
You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar
one, do you?
From what I have seen, climbing Cecile Brunner does not throw panicles,
it blooms all along the canes, like this:
http://www.justourpictures.com/roses...lebrunner.html
Maybe I'm confusing the term panicle with clusters. Mine seems to
bloom in clusters all along the length of the cane, just smaller
versions of those two huge panicles that grew directly from basals.
PS, actually there are two long basals that grew up into the tree,not
just the one that I mentioned.
Boy, I REALLY like that La Pactole. Is that a single plant or a "hedge
planting"? where can I get one *just* like that? chuckle
As I read it, there are at least two plants there, right?
That is Regina's picture, and it looks very similar to what it looks
like at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden.
Looks like the way that mine blooms, with the exception of those two
large ground based panicles. As I said, each of the clusteres just
looks like panicles to me (i.e. branching clusters). Is my
nomenclature incorrect?
Here is a picture of Climbing Cecile Brunner in Baldo Villegas's picture
collection - you will have to be patient and let all the pictures load
and look for the one marked "Climbing Cecile Brunner arch at McKinley
Rose Garden in Sacramento, April 12, 2001."
http://www.sactorose.org/roses/55climbers.htm
You will see in either case no panicles, just the blooms along the canes.
But if you look at the clusters on mine, they just look like small
panicles.
In the case of the specimen at the Heritage, it is a huge specimen, sort
of like a cross between the first picture and the second, or if you can
imagine the second picture to contain a ten times bigger climber (in girth).
Oh, here - this is exactly what the one at the San Jose Heritage looks
like (minus the house):
http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html
Paul Barden, who is an excellent Rose Fellow, mentions in that little
essay, "Like many of the climbing sports, the most often encountered
variety of Climbing Cécile Brünner is once-blooming. However, there is a
repeat blooming form which is in commerce. I suggest that if you want
this rose, that you search for the repeating form. You may want to try
Heirloom Old Garden Roses for it."
Yes, looks like a larger version of mine when mine is in full bloom.
Here's a good example of my plant, from a while back:
http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB5.jpg
Not nearly as full yet, but that's partially because I keep looping
the canes back on themselves. I expect the next year to really 'fill
in the gaps".
But, you can see that the bloom structure seems the same...
I got my spray form at a local nursery. Where did you get yours?
Mine was an Antique Rose Emporium model.
Here's what it looked like a couple of months after I planted it 3
springs ago:
http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB6.jpg
I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it
behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three
years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the
tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and
lovely panicles.
Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that
are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I
train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead
tree.
Mine grows as a self-supporting giant fountain, with 15 to 20 feet canes
all coming out in a fountain, IYKWIM. Sort of like a Cecile Brunner bush
that has sported to a giant creature throwing panicles, which I believe
is the origin of the Spray form.
I have heard that the climbing Cecile Brunner was a sport of the bush
form, and in an independent sporting event, the Spray form came about,
and that all three can go from one to the other. I do not know if that
is really so, but in general, sporting is a display of somatic cell
instability and mutation, so is it possible that what you have is a
climber that is sporting into the Spray form?
That could very well be, as it seems to exhibit traits of both
(assuming that panicles and sprays aren't mutually exclusive.
Is it possible that yours
is the repeat-blooming climbing Cecile Brunner that Paul Barden mentions
in his essay that is also sporting in parts to the Spray form?
Well, that's why I posted this info in the first place. It definitely
didn't go away after the first big flush (although it's a little quiet
at the moment, there are still a few blooms and more on the way).
Incidentally, to add to all this confusion, there are some who claim
that there is another rose called Bloomfield Abundance that is being
also sold as the Spray Cecile Brunner - here, take a look at this:
http://www.ph-rose-gardens.com/00931.htm
Hmmmm, I don't think that mine is that, because it doesn't have a HUGE
fragrance.
My Spray Cecile Brunner does not have that wild-looking "longer sepals
that may extend like flags above the buds," but I have seen it on some
gorgeous CB specimens around here. I do not know the truth of this either.
Here is a closeup of mine:
http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg
This is from November of last year (showing that this sucker blooms
*late* in the season as well)
What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems
the same to me...
Eh? Do you mean what is normal for size of CB?
No, I meant the sprays of blooms (read clusters or panicles even).
The bush form, a
neighbour has a couple of specimens, is a 6 feet tall cylinder that is
about 3 feet wide. It is in bloom ALL the time. I mean, there are no
flushes, it is in bloom ALL the time. Oh, here is a picture from
Regina's web site, taken in Sacramento:
http://www.justourpictures.com/roses/lepactole_CB.html
Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct
and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the
largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller.
As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right
now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and
more on the way...
Hmmmm .... kinda confusing, isn't it?
Totally duuuude!
chuckle
You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as
you leave it a large bush. ...
Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it
threw a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with
lots of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide
and is responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the
branches.
Hmmm ... see, I grow ALL my climbing roses except Renae that has very
lax canes as tall, self-supporting bushes. I do not like to train them
in any way, and my Spray CB never needed to be trained on any support,
not really, not after the third year, and since I have it planted next
to a redwood wall-fence, I just tied it to a few hooks driven into the
wall in the first couple of years. Now the canes are so thick that no
training is needed.
Ahhhh, but you *did* train it, eh? I didn't just grow totally
self-supported...
It is quite tall - like I said, 15 to 20 feet tall
canes exist, but generally I try to keep the limbs somewhere between 10
and 15 feet tall - for various reasons.
Well, this helps explain, since you used the term bush, which is a
term I usually don't use when it comes to climbing roses (but that's
just me).
Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide
with mine.
Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones
that I've described?
Some - meaning tall growth; as for as training goes, I have never tried
to train it beyond what I said above.
Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new
growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but
there are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the
right, you can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of
the growth in the tip part of the tree...
http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg
http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg
Nice shots, especially the first one.
I kind of like the fact that the form mimics the shape of a tree. I'm
hoping eventually that the whole thing fills in though...
I am beginning to lean towards your having the remontant climbing CB
that is in commerce according to Paul Braden as mentioned in
http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html
Well, that's almost a given, since it's stayed in bloom. I was just
wondering if maybe there was a chance that there wasn't actually a
"non-remontant" type (I was just sort of guessing that it was possible
given the confusion regarding the various forms of this plant, if you
catch my drift). I seem to see people talking about it, but rarely
talking about spcific plants being that way (for instance, we don't
know whether the one pictured on the Barden site is remontant or not,
because he doesn't specify).
I have never seen this form of the climber, and I do not know if it
throws out panicles as you see on your climbing CB.
It's weird because mine seems to have the traits of both types, in
that it also blooms in clusters along the length of the cane, and yet,
paradoxically, stays in bloom for a long time. Confusing, eh?
How about contacting Heirloom Old Garden Roses and asking them some
questions about the blooming habits of their remontant CB? May be it
does bloom in panicles, and combines all the good features of the
climber (size of plant), the spray (beautiful presentation of the
flowers) and the bush (constant blooming habit)? Sounds miraculous, but
you may have got very lucky if this is teh kind of CB you have!
That's a good suggestion indeed.
This has been a productive conversation, even if there *is* still some
uncertainty...