On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:55:12 -0700, Cass
wrote:

In article , dave weil
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:52:26 -0700, Cass
wrote:

In article , dave weil
wrote:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg

That certainly looks like my plain old Cecile Brunner in bud. Are the
pedicels (http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad3/RoseAnat2.html) spiny?

If you mean "do they have prehensile thorns", no, they are smooth. If
that's not what you mean, then you need to elaborate.

The pedicel is the stem that comes down out of the receptacle (which
forms the hip) within a spray. On my Cecile Brunner, the pedicels have
little spines.

Mine don't. Very smooth.

I assume that pedicels is a little different than panicles. Or am I
wrong? I assume that the main stem of the cluster is a pencuncle while
each branch is a pedicel, right? I would guess that the whole assembly
is a panicle?

Yep, the whole thing is a panicle. A panicle is a spray. On Sally
Holmes they can be 24 inches long. On Susan Louise, I have one that's
this [spreading arms full width] wide and this [holding one arm over
head and other down by leg] high. On my Cecile Brunner, the panicles
are about 2' x 2'.

On mine, the panicles can be anywhere from supporting 4 - 8 blooms or
being an umbrella that holds 20 or 30. Use your imagination to
visualize the size. In any case, those panicles coming off of the cane
are a bit smaller than 2' X 2'. I'd say that from stem to bloom tip,
they are no mare than about a foot and probably no wider than about a
foot, for the bigger ones. Many of them are actually smaller and are
probably only about 6" X 6".

The two sprays on the side of the plant came up as basals, so they
could be considered to be 36 inches long, I suppose (from the base of
the plant). The ones that come out of the canes are a bit smaller than
what you describe (see above)

BTW, what is your "plain ole Cecile Brunner"? Climbing or bush?
Reblooming or not?

Bush. As I understand it, the climbing form is an old sport from the
late 1800's that doesn't rebloom well, whereas Spray Cecile Brunner is
a more recent, reblooming sport which is sometimes sold and confused
with 'Bloomfield Abundancer." Vintage says that Spray Cecile Brunner
is a nice 5 foot shrub. To complicate matters, Improved Cecile Brunner
isn't a sport and is derived from a new cross.

Are you conflating "Spray" CB with "Improved" CD here?

Somewhere I read that the spines on the pedicels are diagnostic.... but
of what, I don't recall. Since my bush form has spiny pedicels, I
thought I'd ask if your climber has the spines or not.

Nope. Not spiny.

I've probably muddied the waters even more. I know *I'm* confused!