Still mo
Rob writes: "Andy, the problem with do-it-yourself
and buying has to do with one thing - money. I
personally know of only two collectors in Florida
that pay to have their trees maintained/styled.
Both are extremely wealthy and can afford to have
gardeners take care of the rest of their stuff.
-------------
Great! Now tell me why this is a problem
for someone with the money to purchase fine art
and have someone else maintain it? Why is this a
threat to anyone who develops and maintains
his/her own bonsai? This is a non-issue and begs
the question why it is even brought up in such a
debate.
-------------
Rob continues: "It would be interesting for bonsai
in the USA if we developed some serious patrons of
the art like exist in Japan. Then perhaps bonsai
artists can make decent living from the largess of
the patrons. The drawback is it would drive up the
cost of good trees as has happened in Japan. I for
one would hate to compete with Bill Gates in a
bonsai auction. (Unless I was selling )"
---------------
You're completely wrong on this front.
Contrary to driving up costs - costs for what we
currently have would plummet. Given a demand for
quality, the junk we currently play with would be
rightly regarded as junk, and the prices would go
down correspondingly. The truly good bonsai would
be priced as they should - what the market would
bear - and the rest would be modestly priced, just
as in Japan (to follow your premise). In Japan,
moderate quality bonsai are priced less than half
what such material is priced in the U.S..
Look, this is really a non-issue. What is
an issue, is the fact that those without gobs of
money have an irrational problem with those who do
and can afford to purchase fine art. This is
simply silly.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas
--------------------------------------------------

Well, Andy, I think you misread what I
wrote. I never said it is a problem for well
heeled individuals to buy trees and have someone
style them. I would actually favor this. The
problem, as I said it, is less heeled people can
not afford to buy high quality, expensive trees.
Simple statement, not much opinion involved. If
these people want good bonsai, they do it
themselves. This is not the problem/issue you are
raising, but then the issue you are raising seems
somewhat trivial. Your issue seems to be
growers/do-it-yourselvers are threatened by people
that buy trees only. If you carefully reread my
text above, I never said a person buying a tree is
a threat to someone who grows them. I don't feel
this way. I encourage anyone to buy my trees for
as much as possible. My heirs will appreciate it.
There may be people out there that resent
wealthy purchasers, but they exist in all markets,
not just bonsai. Seems you are merely commenting
on human nature.
Perhaps a better problem to debate is why
we don't have US patrons (i.e. collectors) of
bonsai. People that can plop down big bucks just
because the like a tree. Complaining that other
people resent them is like ****ing in the wind.
BTW, I beg to differ with you about the
impact of patrons. First off, let me repeat what I
wrote. I said "The drawback is it would drive up
the cost of good trees as has happened in Japan."
Emphasis on good. I never mentioned the cost
impact on "non-good" trees. Good trees in Japan go
for fairly large amounts of money. I am aware of
two bonsai trees that sold for millions, and I
personally saw and was told by the seller of a
nice Japanese Black Pine that sold for $250,000.
These prices were paid by what one would have to
call a patron of the art. The patrons were wealthy
and didn't tend for the trees themselves. These
values are at least one and perhaps 2 or 3 orders
of magnitude higher than what good trees sell for
in the US.
I never addressed the impact of patrons on
lesser quality trees. Frankly, with a large enough
market, I believe there would be little impact.
The art market is a good analogy here. Prices
range all over the place with a definite high end
that US bonsai presently lacks.
Rob
--------------------------------------------------

Hi Rob,
Forgive me if I misread your comments.
Perhaps my misunderstanding stems from the fact
that you cite the "problem" as not many can afford
to buy good bonsai, and I see the problem that
those who create from scratch usually (not always)
regard collectors as not a part of the bonsai
endeavor.
As to patrons, again our disagreement
stems from the fact that you cite the "problem" in
that prices of good trees would go up if a large
number of collectors were interested in the good
stuff. I see the problem in that there are few of
these individuals and that prices are "wrong" now.
We pay high prices for junk, and there are very
few bonsai in the U.S. that are worth the kinds of
prices you're referring to - so prices on what we
have here would NOT go up. There is little to
nothing here that is worth half of what you're
talking about.
IF, by some miracle, a number of wealthy
patrons were interested in collecting good bonsai,
they'd have to go to Japan or Europe or Malaysia
to get them. By the way, there will never be
wealthy patrons interested in getting into the
bonsai arena, so long as they are held in contempt
by those who define a bonsai enthusiast as one who
creates bonsai.
This situation is made even more ridiculous when
those who create their own bonsai refuse to - or
are just plain scared to refer to themselves as
artists. If you ain't an artist, you are a
hobbyist. See how this term flies in our
community. It flies like a lead balloon.
Hobbyists take offense at the term
"hobbyist," yet they refuse to term themselves as
artists. No problem, but then these same
individuals criticise non-artists when they
collect bonsai created by an artist.
Not good, folks.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas
--------------------------------------------------
Let's not forget somebody else who has a big hand
in the quality of the trees....... Mother Nature
Regards
Ian
--------------------------------------------------

Dear Andy,
I have also read your editorial and agree
with it. In many ways it echoes the opinions I
gave in a recent post where I was slagged off for
suggesting (rather less politely than you!) that
it was possible and, indeed, desirable for
beginners to commence with good material as long
as they have good advice from experienced people
at hand. I think that it is preferable for the
following reasons:
1. I think good material offers us the opportunity
to learn more than with poor material.
2. It is much easier to sell on when our tastes
change/mature.
3. It won’t end up sitting on the end of our
shelves being ignored, because we can no longer
bother with the effort that it warrants.
4. It is unlikely to contribute to improving the
level of bonsai in the future. (I like to think
that I will leave behind bonsai that people will
be proud to own and enjoy.)
Darren is perfectly right when he refers
to the “Little Dragon”. This tree’s future has
been set by Kevin Wilson, and nothing can change
that unless myself or a future owner decides upon
a radical change to improve the design.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I think Kevin has
left little room for maneuver here. I shall have
to limit myself to refining as the tree matures
over the next few years. I was faced with a choice
when I purchased this tree: do I get ****ed off at
seeing it on Kevin's shelves when I go to his
garden, or do I go without a decent car, not get a
new sofa, live on the bread line for a couple of
months and listen to the nagging- “how could you
spend THAT MUCH on a tree when we need blah blah
blah……..” and put it on mine? The decision was
easy really! It’s the best, and I wanted it.
In Spain we have had similar arguments to
those in Andy’s editorial regarding the best way
to call bonsai teachers. In Spain, the word for
teacher “maestro,” also happens to be the word for
Master as in Messrs Kimura, Kobayashi, Kawabe,
Imai etc.
Unfortunately, the word was being used in
the latter sense and some people got wound up by
this. I suggested the use of the word “artist”
instead, because we can all aspire or claim to be
artists whether good, bad or just different. I
like the word enthusiast just as much though.
As an example, I exhibited a Tamarix at
the Ginkgo that I feel is on the verge of perhaps
being too clinical, too ‘over-perfected’ in its
design - every weeping branch and many leaves were
wired in parallel. I have reached my ‘artistic’
limits with this tree, because I am unable to
think of a way to introduce design elements that
break the monotony without introducing disharmony.
I have designed in hardly noticeable quirks by
allowing the odd branch to grow in an unexpected
place, but that’s as far as it goes.
At the other end of the scale were Walter
Pall’s pines, that we know from his posts on the
gallery are designed under his naturalistic
precepts. Many observers simply assumed that the
owner lacked the skill to, or had simply not
bothered to refine them. We on the gallery know
better, of course.
Both of these approaches are equally
artistic, with their own particular inherent
faults. My view is that we do not do bonsai to
mimic nature but to improve and refine nature’s
work by making it more aesthetically pleasing. To
me a truly naturalistic approach would be to place
the tree in a pot and allow it to grow with
minimal pruning to control the size.
Walter seems to have found a halfway home
between aesthetic perfection and a natural look
that does not convince me personally, but is as
equally artistically valid as my approach with the
Tamarix. I have accused Walter on this forum of
utilising the ‘naturalistic’ approach as an excuse
to not refine his trees, but maybe he has opened
the door to complete freedom from the bonsai
shackles. Perhaps we should all go naturalistic,
burn our bonsai tools, except the pruning shears,
of course, and become bonsai hippies. Wow! Now
that would be cool, man. Pass the smokes! Think of
all those wacky-backy induced way out naturalistic
designs…. Virtuals welcome!!!!
Andy, my view is that collectors are a
minority for one simple reason – dinero. It takes
a huge amount of money to pay for the purchase and
maintenance of ‘collectors items’ bonsai. This
precludes all but a privileged minority. Oh, to be
one of them! However, if I did have the means, I
would certainly not hesitate to purchase important
bonsai masterpieces from the Japanese Masters. I
have wet dreams about owning Mr. Kimura’s
Descending Dragon. Were I to purchase it, is the
fact that I have not designed it and would have
someone experienced help me care for it, so as not
to
spoil the design, make me less of an enthusiast. I
think not, and agree with you that it is unfair
that the rules of some competitions preclude the
participation of collectors. I remember a story
of Mr. Kimura congratulating the owner of a Kokufu
award-winning tree that he had prepared on behalf
of the owner.
Regards
Raymon

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