On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 08:51:08 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

In message , Stephen Howard
writes
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:32:43 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

Natural does not mean safe. There are plenty of very nasty natural
pathogens and chemical defences. Nature is red in tooth and claw.

That's a fact that most organic gardeners are well aware of.

Some Organic gardeners may be aware of it. Though I have met plenty who
are not and live in a pretend Disneyfied world where nature is always
benign and "chemicals" are always bad.

Ah yes, we've all met a few cuckoos on both sides of the debate - I
think there's often a risk of some people adopting the "art for art's
sake" approach.
The 'taste test' is one that's regularly wheeled out in favour of
organic produce - and to some degree it hold true, though the reason
is far more likely to be down to the comparative freshness of the
produce. Neither side is a stranger to being sneaky.

The Organic(TM) logo used to market produce to the worried well in
supermarkets is nothing more than a clever marketing ploy. Minimum
inputs agriculture makes very good sense but using absolutely no
synthetic chemicals is a total nonsense (in fact they do use chemicals
but only those approved by the Soil Association on purely arbitrary
grounds).

I don't agree that using no synthetic chemicals is nonsense as a
proposition, but what's often forgotten that a wholly organic approach
to agriculture is likely to require an appropriate change of scale.
It often seems to me that people try to transplant an organic
structure straight on top of one that was laid out to suit a
non-organic one. It requires more work and thought than that.

But for as long as there is a false dichotomy between the two extremes
of "no chemicals" and "maximum yield" strategies there will be no
progress

Dead right there!

No. Are we worried about PCBs? Yeah.

Definitely PCBs are seriously bad.

Dioxins get a worse press than they deserve and only some of them are
really very nasty. They do occur naturally by fungal action (as well as
in forest fires). I guess having a short name did them no favours.

It's bug debate all over - there's huge profit to be made in flogging
antibacterial this, and antifungal that. What we need is a 'national
eat at a roadside cafe' day to redress the balance.
And that's the nub of the issue...balance.

I reckon we should deprive the weenies of every synthetic chemical for a
week or two and see how they get on. That means no car, refined oil,
plastics, metals, glass, batteries, antiseptics, antibiotics.

So being concerned about the environment means you have to walk about
in sackcloth? Making decisions about what you eat and where it comes
from means living in a hut?

Potable drinking water is another very tricky example. Without the right
water treatment there would be all sorts of bad stuff living in the
pipes.

Indeed - I've never subscribed to the bottled water fan club, though I
do admit to once having bought a posh water filter...chiefly to remove
the odour of chlorine in the water. I was understandably miffed when I
heard some time later that letting a jug of water stand in the fridge
for half an hour does the same thing.

And don't you think there's room for improvement in your 'brave new
world'?

I don't think an irrational fear of synthetic chemicals does anything to
help the situation. It is still worse that supermarkets exploit the
public fear of "chemicals" to sell vastly overpriced Organic(TM) produce
that has been flown half way round the world to satisfy this faddish
demand.

I won't argue with that! I don't believe it's enough to stamp produce
with a fancy label and assume that it's squeaky clean, there's a whole
range of environmental issues that have to be taken into account.
And again the two sides are equally as responsible for the chaos and
misinterpretation.
People expect to eat apples with no skin blemishes, or straight
carrots etc. and in order to meet that demand growers often have
little choice but to resort to chemicals in order to maintain a viable
business.
When was the last time you saw an 'amusingly misshapen vegetable' in
Sainsbury's? ( I've grown a few.. including a spud that looked like Mo
Mowlem's arse....and don't ask! ).

And it makes me half smile/half groan when people think they have a
problem because little black pollen beetles crawl out of their cut
blooms.

I do support local organic producers and I grow my own produce with
almost no chemicals (ornamental plants get different treatment).

Seems we're pretty much in agreement, if perhaps coming to the same
conclusions from slightly different directions.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk