I subscribe to Roland's view that amended the soil is the way to go.
Sometimes amendment adds a very large volume of material to clay. It's
just as hard as replacing the soil, but I believe that a good measure
of clay in the soil is a very good component of garden soil for roses:
holds moisture, holds nutrients, lessens the "shock" of transition from
rose hole to surrounding soil.

I have planted roses in the most appalling yellow clay on a slope.
Roses tolerate it just fine. Besides, soil organisms will do the work
of amending the top 6 inches of the soil for you, if you mulch and keep
the mulch stacked up a good 4 inches.

--
Cass

Joe Doe wrote:

wrote:

I did originially plant my roses in "flower pot" holes--just dug out the
clay and put bagged soil in. Five years later, the above has still not
happened, and we have had veritable floods. I think the above is utter
nonsense, for what that is worth. (I did apply think mulch every year,
which has, of course, broken down to rich loam. You need to do that in TX
too.

You may choose to regard this as nonsense. However as I have pointed out
the opposite opinion to yours is actually held by numerous gardening
authorities (amend soil rather than replace soil). Clay is good, holds
nutrients, holds moisture. It only needs to be loosened up for air and
water and this can be done with amendments. Yes this is slow but it is in
fact preferred.

You have made up your mind. Since you frequently cite this advice of
replacing soil on this newsgroup I am pointing out another widely held
view and people can make up their own mind what to do. The point I am
making is also made by several web sources which I quote below

from http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et0299/et0299s10.html

³But the main reason not to trade dirt is a little thing called soil
interface. This is a condition that occurs when soils of different
textures are put into the same space. If you made a bowl out of modeling
clay, filled it with sand and then filled the bowl with water, what would
you get? You're right: you get a bowl of wet sand. That is exactly what
happens when a layer of a porous soil is put on top of a non porous soil.
Then a whole new set of problems begins, including but not limited to
oversaturation of the imported material.²

from http://www.rodsgarden.50megs.com/clayplanting.htm
³It is better to improve the existing soil than to bring in completely
different soil. A rich soil will absorb water quickly, but it can't drain
away through heavy clay soil. The rich soil will usually be even wetter
than heavy clay and root rot is likely. The only exception is if you hit
blue clay. Roots will not grow in blue clay because there is no oxygen in
it. Replace it with sandy topsoil mixed with the top layer of soil.²

from http://www.rogersgardens.com/infopag...ening_tips.htm
³One last note on planting in poor soil that has been amended: Most
gardeners dig a new hole for planting, removing most native (existing)
soil, then add 75-100% of amendment in the space. In clay soil, this
method will create a loose-draining area surrounded by a wall of clay. The
amended area will act like a sump, drawing all the moisture that is
trapped in the surrounding clay soil. Mix 1/2 native soil with 1/2
amendment.²

Roland