Andy Rutledge wrote:

Craig,

I appreciate your responses here. Perhaps we can begin to clear up some of
our misunderstanding and discriminatory views... (the last point at the end
of this page is the most important, IMO)

snip

Let me put it this way: I know several art collectors - people who
collect a particular art or style of art or works from a specific artist.
In every case, even though they are enamored of this work/art/medium, they
possess no inclination to try and acquire the skills/knowledge needed to
produce such things. They're enthusiastic collectors, not artists. This
would seem to be a very common tale in the arts world. Just because the
medium in question here is bonsai is no reason to think that everything
about the collectors is somehow different.
-

No--not acquiring the skills--learning *about* the skills. Watching someone
else do it. That's all. What else would you do at a bonsai club meeting?

snip

This is great, but I again hope that you're not suggesting that anything
I've put forth has anything at all to do with elitism. You are in fact
contradicting yourself. You say "The more people who are involved, the
better," but you seem fully prepared to ignore/segregate collectors. Why?

I'm not prepared to ignore them at all. As I said at the end of my last post,
I have no problem with people who collect trees but have someone else maintain
them. I just don't like it when someone wants to put a tree in an exhibition
under their name when they don't deserve the credit for it's production.
That's it.

I hope that you realize the important distinction between elite and elitist.
If you do not, you're not qualified to have this discussion.

Andy, after 4 years of college, 6 years of graduate study and 2 of postgraduate
study I think I am qualified for this discussion and can understand the
difference between the terms.

If you do, why
do you insist on characterizing the ADDITION of a group of enthusiasts to
our community as an elitist effort?

The addition of such people to the community is not elitist.

By your own admission, the addition of
more enthusiasts is better.

Yep.

Does the fact that affluent enthusiasts can
afford to participate at a level different from your own or can purchase
bonsai art of a quality higher than someone else can bother you so much that
you lose perspective?

Not a bit.

"Elite" is great. "Elitist" is bad, derogatory and
inflamatory. There has been no mention of elitism here - except by you.

Class / income envy has no place in this discussion.

Right. Except in reference to the above. It is insulting (and I've heard of
this happening in club shows) for a person who has the financial wherewithal to
go out and buy a tree two weeks before an exhibit and put the tree in the
exhibit under their name, when generally most of the trees in such an exhibit
have been produced by the individuals themselves.

I don't intend to deform your arguments, Andy, just point out the garden
path
that they can lead us down. There is a difference.
-------------

Let me point out that whether or not you intend it, you've not so much
pointed out the logical path of what I've mentioned as you have pointed out
the logical path of what you've made up. Again, you've addressed your own
distorted view of my posit - not my actual posits. There's a difference.

No, it's not necessarily the logical path, but a danger.


I'm addressing your finishing statement in another message (Judged exhibit
lunacy)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

:-) !!
Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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