Bill Kirkpatrick wrote in message ...
I'm going to leave this with...

For all you said, what you haven't answered is the riddle,
other than to say "wrong". Ok, well, maybe we collectively
are, that's fine...

Well the scientist are not wrong, we can see that if you add
nutrients, P or/or N to a lake with 50% or more surface coverage with
macrophytes, the lake stays macrophyte dominated. Adding nutrients
makes the plants grow faster.
If the levels are less than 30-50%, often you will get algal pea soup
domination.

That's one reason we have such bad aquatic weed problems in Florida.

But, if, as you say, higher plants need so very much more of
"everything" v. algae, just to survive, and all of that must
be in the water at all times, else our higher plants are
just dead beyond redemption... then...
How is it anyone, ever, controls algae? Shouldn't it simply
explode, killing everyone, and everything?

There's many ways, not just one way we control algae and it's
controlled in nature. Algae is tasty and nutritious and grows back
fast so this supports a large herbivore population, wereas there are
few aquatic plant herbivores(Grass carp etc). Submersed Plants grow,
but it takes them more time to establish.

Algae and macrophytes occupy different niches/environments.
High O2 level;s in lakes, aquariums seems to have a negative effect
likely due to photorespiration to _some_ algae species.

In our tanks we remove the algae, start off the tank with loads of
plants, we always remove the algae and do water changes etc.

Macrophytes main competitive advantage is light.
Macrophytes grow fast enough to out pace the the algal colonization.
We trim off the older leaves, replant thew tops.

Something must be limiting them. You seem to propose
nothing, other than the mear physical presence of healthy
plants. Surely algae do not inspect their environment,
approve the health, state, and quantity, of the higher
plants, and give up.

Why not?
Plants do. Seeds will not grow unless precise environmental conditions
exist, the same is true for algae spores.
Try and induce green water without NH4, use NO3 for example, then try
using NH4, you'll see quickly that algae do respond fast to this.

(Aside - some higher plants to emit various biocides. Let's
assume our swords do not.

You'd be hard pressed to show this. See APD for more on allelopathy,
I've made some very strong arguments against this happening.

Further, reefs and silk plant
tanks are known to exist w/o higher plants at all, yet are
also subject to acute, resolvable, algae infections.)

Reefs are not the same as planted tanks. There are marine planted
tanks, but these are not reef tanks. Not all corals use algae.
Silk plant tanks don't have higher lighting(why add more light?)

People have gone from no apparent infection, to acute
infection, and back. I have, even somewhat routinely on my
reef tanks.

I keep marine planted tanks, but like the FW plants, if the corals are
not feed and kept healthy/ actively growing, the nuisance algae will
bloom.
We see this commonly with refugium folks, their macro's grow like
gangbusters, peter out due to nutrient limitations, go sexual(in
response to what? low, not high nutrients) and then afterwards, the
bad algae come in.
The conditions in marine tanks are more subtle, but many of the same
issues still apply.

If, as you seem to claim, all higher plants
must fail before nutrients can limit the algae, then what IS
doing the limiting?

See above, there is likely a few things going on. Few researchers have
really looked at this in terms of a planted tank, there's no grant
money

Something is allowing routine
reclamation of all these obviously inoculated tanks? (and
not everyone is pumping their tank full of anti-biotics,
particularly on the reef side.)

I feel I have spent enough time and supported my own arguments and
assertions, it's now time for you to look into things for yourself and
prove that adding PO4 to a planted tank causes algae.

I can easily and handily prove that excess PO4 does not cause algae in
a planted tank. You need to prove to me that it does. The research is
against you, the practical experience is against you, even Paul Sears
concedes otherwise about PO4. Just about every contest winner I know
has used PO4 or has a lot in their tap water.

It is rather easy to prove what something is not, it's tougher to
prove what is going on, often it's several things.

I'm not saying what precisely it is that causes plant domination, but
it does exist and I've given several good plausible nmechanisms for
this to occur.
There are other mechanisms I have not listed but look around first.

Regards,
Tom Barr