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21-07-2004, 10:06 PM

In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:09:43 -0700, (paghat)
opined:

The wheel of illusion, which is the material universe as snare, is a
creation of gods. Buddhism does not deny the existence of gods, whether
Hindu or Christian gods, they may well all exist, Buddhism does not deny
them. It posits instead that gods, like the rest of us, are trapped in
this shared wheel of illusion. And whether its the million gods of tantric
& northern buddhism, or just a shitload of bodhisattvas who linger to help
us escape, Deities they are, so this cannot be likened atheism, despite
that the Mormon heads of the national offices of Boy Scouts of America
decided heathen Buddhist scouts & Unitarians can no longer earn religious
merit badges because they must be athiests.

-paghat the ratgirl

H.H. The Dalai Lama said in my presence, while being asked if Buddhists were
atheists, answered "Yes, Buddhism can be considered atheist since we do not
believe in creator nor creation." I said nothing of deities which are
bodhisattva's or anyone in the existence of samsara. Buddhists do not believe
you pray to a god or gods for things. It's not like that. But I suppose you
know everything about Buddhism so I should give up now.

Clearly I do know more, but that needn't mean I know very much. You can
pretend to quote the Dalai Lama off the top of your head, but you're
bullshitting & you know it. Here's an ACTUAL quote of the Dalai Lama XIV,
on the topic of whether or not the Virgin Mary is a Goddess: "Whenever I
see an image of Mary, I feel that she represents love and compassion. She
is like a symbol of love. Within Buddhist iconography, the Goddess Tara
occupies a similar position" [Dalai Lama XIV, 1996]. The Dalai Lama XIV
also said of Tara, "She is the Goddess who oversees the actions of all
Buddhas."

But when asked about atheism, the Dalai Lama's rote reply is that "Atheism
is preferable to a complete lack of spirituality." Meaning, I presume,
that Belief in nothing is still belief. The Dalai Lama says it is okay for
you to not believe in things, the only philosophy that matters is kindness
-- not your forte either.

The official teachings of Tibetan Buddhism, which the Dalai Lama
represents, has a strong presence of gods & goddesses. Northern or Tibetan
buddhism is a WHELTER of gods & goddesses! I don't say you have to study
buddhism to have it as your faith, but it would help to study it before
you represent it to others, as these errors are too sweeping. It would be
possible to cite rare forms of Buddhism wherein the gods & goddesses are
very greatly diminished, but the Tibetan form isn't one of those. For you
to say buddhists don't pray to divinities is absurd. A basic Tibetan
buddhist prayer begins thus:

"Compasionate Savouress Tara, Goddess born of tears, you are infinite virtue."

That doesn't mean you can't believe any ol' thing YOU want, it's just odd
to pretend the leader of Tibetan buddhism doesn't believe in northern
buddhist divinities. As well to say you're an atheist because you believe
in Jesus. So if you really were in the presence of the Dalai Lama, you
were either too overawed to be paying proper attention, or so far back in
the crowd you couldn't actually hear him. His words are easily found
written down, though, if you'd care to try for a real citation of the
Dalai Lama, the living god, promoting atheism.

Alhtough I grew up in a Buddhist household & attended Buddhist temple for
years with my (step)mother who was a bikuni raised from age five in a
Buddhist monastery, unlike you I won't say what all buddhists believe.
"Belief" is a strange thing, & if you "believe" you are an atheist because
you're Buddhist, then in a weird Zen sort of way I'm willing to believe
that for you, it's true, though it certainly would never apply broadly to
buddhism, let alone the divinity-fixated northern form. Faith isn't based
on reason, & your unreasonable belief that belief is atheistic, well hey,
I'm sure there's a sound of one hand clapping in there somewhere.

It remains the majority of buddhists, including most certainly those who
adhere to that which is promulgated by the Dalai Lama, believe in & pray
to buddhas, bodhisatvas, & gods. I could recommend you an elementary
reading list if you like, but really you could pick up any book about the
divinities with the words Northern buddhism, Tibetan buddhism, or Tantric
buddhism in the title, & learn a great deal about the gods & goddesses of
Buddhism. Siddhartha himself never taught that gods were not real; he not
only believed in the gods, he spoke to them, he converted many of them to
his philosophy. Siddhartha's form of Buddhism was not the Tibetan form
which is much more divinities-oriented than was the buddhism of
Siddhartha, who taught that the gods & goddesses are themselves, like us,
trapped in the wheel of illusion. That lessens their significance, but it
is not atheism. Siddhartha's form of Buddhism is not the usual form
practiced today, the northern forms that dominate hold divinities with
profound esteem, including surprisingly enough Jesus and Mary as just two
more in an endless parade of divinities.

Atheism is what the Beijing government imposes on Tibet, & it is fear of
the influence of the Dalai Lama that keeps China insistant that he cannot
return to Tibet, ever, & even possessing a photograph of him is illegal.
The anti-Dalai Lama campaign in Tibet is defined by the Communist Party as
"actively promoting atheism." They don't have to even mention the Dalai
Lama, they only have to promote atheism. It is insufficient to be a
nonbeliever; one must actively promote atheism to be properly patriotic.

The Goddess Tara is particularly important to the Dalai Lama. Tara's
masculine counterpart is Avalokitesvara, & the Dalai Lama purports to be
an incarnation of Avalokitesvara; the Daila Lama thus shares Tara's title
"Ocean of Wisdom" & he is said to be a Living God.

An atheist wouldn't believe any of this. To me it is all merely poetry, &
I try to maintain a respectful agnosticism for love of my late mother
Lumchuan, though probably I'm much closer to an atheist personally, even
though I do maintain a Tara shrine (my Tara having been blessed & sealed
in a Nepalese temple that long sheltered the Dalai Lama) & I make up poems
& offerings to her just in case my mom was right, & cuz its a fun
aesthetic thing to do, whether or not silly.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com