Dan Welch wrote:

"sarah" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

"sarah" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:

"The Reids" wrote in message
...
As I negotiated the north circular this morning a voice on the


[..]

Manure is used by both organic and conventional systems.

Do they really use manure in 'conventional' systems?

Absolutely. Human as well as everything else -- when they can get it.
And, to be fair, as far as I know Organic producers are allowed a
certain proportion of manure from non-organic systems, provided it's
composted and doesn't contain prohibited substances.

Ummm... that's not actually true for organic *or* conventional growers.

Disproven not only by your own admission (see below), but by the
published regulations and standards for both types of farming, and a
conversation this morning with the Soil Association.

As regards organic growers, I suggest you review the Organic Standards,
and use some common sense. Organic farmers must maintain soil fertility;
traditional mixed farms utilising rotations -- and even those that buy
in manure -- rely on animal manures to add nutrients to the soil of
particular fields. It's a basic principle of organic farming. The Soil
Association Organic Standards permit the use of animal manures, even on
fields used to grow salad crops *PROVIDED* that the manures are
composted (which markedly reduces the population of undesirable
organisms as well as improving the quality of the manure), AND the
manured crops are left for the specified time before harvest. Organic
regs require these delays; the same are recommended for conventional
systems by the FSA (see below).

As regards conventional growers, just contemplate the piles of manure
and sewage sludge going onto arable. The Animal By-Products legislation
specifically *permits* the application of manure (fresh or composted) to
agricultural lands, unless the local authority considers said manure to
be hazardous for some particular reason.

I work for a salad processor, mainly dealing with our suppliers, and none*
of our suppliers use any kind of manure on their fields - animal or human.
It's simply not worth it from a cost (in terms of lost sales / bad
publicity) / benefit terms. Manure has to be heated to a high temperature
to kill off all pathogens and it's not easy to ensure even heating to this
temperature, particularly with the weather we've been having recently!
It's not legal to spread human sewage sludge on fields where crops are
grown, hasn't been for some years now.

I beg your pardon? 'crops' as in salad crops, or other arable? I think
you'll find composted sewage sludge is perfectly acceptable as a soil
improver on standard arable, and a brief google finds no record of a ban
on its use on salads, although I'd think it inadvisable given the likely
number of pathogens and parasites. The Soil Association does not permit
its use anywhere because of this and the likely loading of heavy metals
and other contaminants.

I have been unable to find any record of a ban on the use of other
animal manures on salad crops. The 2002 draft *guidelines for the use of
manures* 'managingfarmmanures.pdf' from the FSA website
(www.food.gov.uk) advises against the application of fresh manures
within 6 months of harvest of a 'ready to eat crop'; 4 months from the
last presence of livestock on the land, and 2 months from the last
application of a composted manure. That certainly does not suggest a
ban.


*actually we buy from an Italian organic supplier who use composted cow
muck, but have so many records of composting temperature etc etc etc that
they are sure it doesn't pose a threat, but they really are the only
supplier.

So why on earth did you say no organic or conventional growers use
manure? Use of animal manures is standard practice for arable crops, and
reasonably common, with due care and attention to standards, for
saladings. And long may it continue to be so.

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.