C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few
power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the
Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in
Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red
China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where
the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor).






Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been
privatized.





And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected
members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is
still owned by those who run the government.




Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a
while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to
know this.



No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the
private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these
factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but
with their American investors. So you tell me how while it has
changed in shape, the end result isn't really different?


Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock
market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have
expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance.

Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is supposed
to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen can own stock?
that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up to attract foreign
investment capital and to also make it easier to reward the party
bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than free-market capitalism.
They could still take it all back and leave their overseas investors
hanging - what you gonna do when they do that? Sue them?






Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually
dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with
extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the
time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an
extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them -
even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you
can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the
older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always
gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal.
How can American companies compete with that?






They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product
they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business,
but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive.





It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation,
so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice.
And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to
buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's
everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in
the first place.




The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American
consumers wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard for
quality. Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly came on the
scene, people endorsed their products because they were a few bucks
cheaper than someone like Delta.



Part of American workers wanting cheaper goods is them not getting
paid enough to afford higher quality goods. Remember that fascist
Henry Ford? Instead of lowering wages, he gave his workers more,
realizing that if he paid them more they could afford to buy the cars
he was making. Today a Wal Mart worker - if they pay rent, make care
payments on a cheap car, pay for their own medica insurance, etc -
they can't afford to shop in Wal Mart to buy all their family's
needs. They can do that if they go on the dole - food stamps (which
some of them qualify for even if they work fulll time) and if they put
off regular health care and use the emergency room for chronic health
care needs.


I'm not arguing against many not getting paid enough. However, for
many, it's just wanting (not necessarily needing) as much stuff as
possible. Even people who could afford better often choose cheap import
over better quality.




And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who
hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as
you can.




Yes, you do.



WHy not get the government to come and haul the illegals away and bust
the contractor breaking the law? Thay way he won't be competing
illegally with you.

A conttractor who is breaking the law like that is the equivalent of
someone who cuts costs by stealing stuff to sell, or buying stolen
property.. Should you compete with someone who steals or buys stolen
goods by doing the same thing? Or shouldn't you insist that other
employers not have an unfair advantage by obeying the laws?


No argument from me.



If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested
employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the
border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be
cut through or climbed over.




No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to help
someone from another country come here legally. It ****es me off
that the government makes all kinds of exceptions for illegals, and
that so many people look the other way so they can take advantage of
the cheap labor that illegals represent.




But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if
any more tools are going to be made in the USA?






There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are
you willing to pay a higher price to buy them?





Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find
American made tools.



One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores.
The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up
to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts
unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or
cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc.






That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.





If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.




It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their
money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases,
the American products were overpriced junk.



Why was the American stuff overpriced junk - was it the rank and file
worker who decided to come to work and make crap regardless of what
the bosses told them to make, or was it management who had them build
the crap because there wasn't anything else available?


Some of it was the workers, some was the management.

Sorry - most of it was management trying to do stuff on the cheap and
then cutting their own throats. American workers are some of the most
productive workers in the world, if their managerment gets their heads
out of their asses!


Sure - when the Japanese made better stuff for the same money, you
bought the better stuff. You didn't want to throw your money away -
you got more value for your money. Then when American goods caught up
in quality, the Japanese moved there factories to Thailand or other
cheaper countries, and then eventually Amerfcan companies couldn't
compete on the price of the goods and also on the return on
investments. So don't go blaming the consumers only - greedy
investors who want 40% return on investments are to blame too!


I didn't blame consumers only, but I think they are more to blame than
business and investors. You seem to be trying to blame investors and
business only.

Nope - sorry - in the USA the consumers have been getting the shaft for
years. How do you blame someone who has lost their job, or who has not
gotten a pay raise for years, or in fact has had to take less money,
from having to make the difficult choice to buy some cheaper goods in
order to pay for medicine, a visit to the docs, etc. After all - the
cheaper goods wouldn't have been there for the consumer to buy had the
business owners not made them first.




The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to
construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades
(electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber
(who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are
mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they
almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the
job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually
stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and
gold Rolex watch - is a white guy.






That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican
laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say
the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen.





They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done,
or working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and
cable lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard
workers.




That is most likely the fault of the contractor, for failing to have
the said line marked, than the workers.



You ever try to call those guys to come out and mark the lines? I had
to call three or four times and had to wait weeks when I wanted them
marked. So if you are a contractor and you have to wait for weeks to
start a project - you work without.


I guess they don't like you. I've always had good response from them.
And if you're a contractor, don't wait till the last minute before
calling them. If it takes weeks to get them to come out then call weeks
ahead. A good contractor understands these things and schedules
appropriately.

You don't know the situation and it is nothing like you say it is.


On the other hand, the American crews I have seen usually know where
the lines will be buried and can dig around them carefully and not
break the lines - it takes longer and you have to work smarter and
more carefully, and few of the illegal crews can do that - or want
to. They just don't give a crap if the family in the nice big house
has cable or not.


It's probably not the crew that's insisting that the job be done sloppy,
it's most likely the American supervisor. I've found that the crews
will work in the manner that makes their boss happy. If they're told to
be careful, they will. However, the bosses who hire illegals are most
likely looking for fast, not careful.

That is the whole problem with hiring illegals and buying foreign crap -
everyone up and down the chain doesn't seem to understand that it's all
a race to the bottom!




Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either
because the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or
use safe workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because
they didn't work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard,
work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there
self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their
insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they
can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals.




Yup, and unless we all do something about it, the problem will continue.




Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools,
or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they
might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they
might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more
money invested in tools than absolutely necessary?






They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't
try turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is
choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the
US.


The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like
Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay
Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made
product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up
in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling
crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often.



I'd say most American consumers shop by price, with quality factored
in to some extent, rather than by country of origin.



Most Americans can't afford to do otherwise these days. But then
again - some middle class peope will go buy food at Wal Mart and not
at a regular grocery store even though by doing so, they are cutting
off their noses to spite their faces - Wal Mart won't carry all the
variety of foods that you get in a regular grocery store.


Neither will Sams Club, BJs, Costco, etc.

I don't buy my food there either. Wal Mart already controls too much of
the retail business as it is, and I won't give them one more dime!