C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:


USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I
notice that few power or hand tools are made in the
USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made
in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I
have no problem doing business with) and Red China
(perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country
where the factories are owned by the state and staffed
with slave labor).


Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have
been privatized.


And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is
well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all
intents and purposes, it is still owned by those who run
the government.


Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing
for quite a while now, but I would not have expected you
to be informed enough to know this.


No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me
who owns the private companies if not the party elite?
They just privatized these factories and now they split
the profits not with the workers, but with their American
investors. So you tell me how while it has changed in
shape, the end result isn't really different?


Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a
thriving stock market and ownership is shifting to
individuals. I wouldn't have expected you to know this, it
bursts your bubble of ignorance.

Prove it - show some cites. I cited examples of poor pay - rational
people don't starve themsselves to buy stock.


Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that
is supposed to mean that your average rank and file Chinese
citizen can own stock? that is such bullshit - that whole
thing is set up to attract foreign investment capital and to
also make it easier to reward the party bigwigs. Their
system is more fascist than free-market capitalism. They
could still take it all back and leave their overseas
investors hanging - what you gonna do when they do that?
Sue them?


You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are
talking about. The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up,
you obviously are clueless about this subject.



Can you prove it - can you cite examples of stock ownership by Joe Chinaman?

The average citizen in China doesn't own stock. Do you know
what the per capita or average income level is in China?
There are like 1.5 billion people over there. Can you show a
cite where you an prove that the average chinese citizen owns
stock??










You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't
you just shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens.
They own stock. The ability of the average Chinese person to
live cheap and save would put most Americans to shame.









You know these citizens from where? You go over to China?








I know them from China, twit. You're an idiot who writes before
reading. I did go over to China, more times than I can
remember. I lived there for several years. I have friends from
many different income levels and from many different places
including cities and the country side. You obviously know
nothing about China other than a few things you read in the
paper. As you've now shown, even your reading skills are
limited. I'm done talking to you. Go troll somehwere else.







You went over to China more times than you can remember? Where
did you lve in China? If the Red Chinese let you over there, they
didn't let you run all over the country and see all the poverty
and the people who had no democratic freedom.






Keep going, you're showing more of your ignorance.





Are you saying that that I am somehow ignorant of the decrease in
poverty and the increase in democratic freedoms in China? Back it
up - and by something that can be proven - not just you saying that
you lived in China, which itself proves noting - since you can't
prove you lived there and I can't check it out. I can check out
cites thatr you provide, but perhaps that is why you haven't
provided any.




I don't have to prove shit to you moron. I lived in China. People
who know me know it's a fact. Ever see a US passport that was issued
at the Hong Kong consulate? Didn't think so, but I've got one.
There's at least one person I work with who follows this NG. If I'm
lying about living in China, I'm sure he'll say so.



YOu could say you lived on the moon, shared a peanut-butter and banana
sandwich with Elvis last night, and have of of your loser friends back
you up - but it doesn't make it true.


And since you're just trolling, nothing I write here will convince you
either, lutou.

Not trolling - just asking you to put up or shut up - show us a cite or
shut the **** up!





If they can buy stocks, they can only buy the stocks the commie
*******s want them to buy.






Sure, whatever you say.





Moron - I haven't said anything - I WRITE to post on USENET - no
wonder you have problems understanding logic.




You are such a petty fool.



Words mean something - talking is not the same as writing. Anyone who
doesn't understand that there is a difference between talking and
writing is a moron - or a Republican (same thing).


Anyone who resorts to sniping at the use of the verb to say versus the
verb to write during this kind of a discussion is a troll. You also
should learn a bit more about the use of the English language. The verb
to say is not the same as the verb to talk. The first definition of to
say is "to express in words". The form of expression is not specified.
In fact, one of the examples is "the clock says five minutes after
twelve". Everybody knows that most clocks don't talk. It's very common
in literature to use the verb to say in a manner such as I did. Either
you have a limited grasp on the English language, or you're trolling.
Since you appear to be able to write, it's obvious that you are just
trolling.

I don't any intelligent person who says that "the clock says anything" -
they say or write that the the time is whatever it is, or according to
the clock on the wall, or WWV, the time is whatever it is. It's obvious
that I have a better command of the English language than you do.






You make Red China sound like a bastion of freedom, democracy and
capitalism. Maybe you should talk to some Tibetans - they just
love the Red Chinese. Maybe you should just go the **** back
there and live - r starve. I don't care - either way you are a
****ing moron who can't make a logical argument and can't cite any
facts to back up your claim.






I've backed up my claims, I have personal knowledge of the
subject. You only have a few distorted newspaper articles and an
obvious predjudice that has prevented you from learning much about
what has happened in China over the last 20 years. Get your head
out of the paper. Go experience life and then report back in a few
years. Ni bu zhe dao Zhonggua. Ni tai ben. Ni zui zui ben.
Zaijian shagua. And no, I did not need any help to write that. Go
figure it out troll.



YOu have backed up nothing - you claim that you are right because
you lived in China. I don't know you (and don't want to know you),
and you can't prove that you lived there and there is no way to
validate your claims anyway. You offer no cites for facts to back up
your claims, unlike the ones that I have provided.




I can prove I lived there, but you are not worth the time. Did your
cite prove people can't, and don't, own stock? Nope.



My cites proved that average people in China don't have rights, and
don't earn enough money to put food on the table - from that any
intelligent person would realize that they wouldn't be starving to
invest in stocks and buy TVs and cars and cell phones. Per capita
income in China according to Business Week is $1000 a year - how much
****ing stock can you buy at that level?


Once again, you've proven your ignorance. Many people do have cars,
TVs, and cell phones. They also live a hell of a lot cheaper than
people in the US. More people live in one house. They spend more
carefully and save much more.

"Many" people? How many people in CHina is "many"? Give us a cite -
percentages of chinese citizens who own cars, TVs and cell phones.You
say they spend more carefully - I say they have less to spend because
they get paid a dollar a day or less.


Furthermore, China's high population and the "one-child" policy is
causing another problem which would lead any thinking person to
conclude that workers aren't buying much stock. The Chinese old-age
pension system is broke, and with every worker supporting his or her
parents and their two parents, for a total of 6 other people, how are
they going to eat, live, raise their own kid, take care of parents and
family, and invest in the market?


Many of them do it quite well. Have you been there to see it? Nope,
didn't think so. I have. Do you know how inexpensive food it there?
Nope, didn't think you did. Do you have ANY first hand knowledge about
China? Nope, you can only form your opinion on second hand information.
I'm not saying China is perfect, in fact, it is far from perfect. My
point is, and has been, that they have an amazing ability to live cheap,
save money, and spend it carefully.

Depends on what your definition of "many" is. India for example has
more well-educated workers than the entire working population of the US.
But that doesn't mean they are as well paid as our workers are. A
smaller percentage as well as a number of Indian workers have cars than
do workers in the US. While cars in China don't cost as much as cars do
over here, they still cost a whole lot more than the average Chinese
worker can afford to pay, therefore fewer of them have cars. So give us
some cites not your observations.





One of my bext friends from college is from Taiwan. He was very
active in the political system over there about 5 years ago, and he
relocated his business to mainland China because he speaks the
language and he would have a competitive advantage over people
located in the states. Talking with him when he comes back to the
USA, and exchanging e-mail, he tells me of a China that is
definately not the China that you write about. So what accounts for
that difference? Probably because you are full of shit and have
never been to China.




What China have I written about? I've talked about common people
being able to buy stocks. The rest of the things about democracy and
freedom are things you added. Yet more examples of your inability to
read and comprehend.



Dinglebarry - since I have not met you personally - you only wrote
about China in your posting, you could not "talk" about it. I read
and comprehend perfectly - you can't talk in print! You are a moron!


More trolling. Sheesh, what a petty loser.

What trolling? You say we should believe you because you have been to
China, but there is no way for you to prove that or for any of us to
check that. I on the other hand have shown cites and their sources
which anyone can check on and you so far has not been able to prove
wrong by any verifiable sources. Who's trolling now dumbass!




Another associate of mine is a retired executive/engineer for an
American/Canadian company who worked in China for 5 years, retiring
from that job in mid 2004. He tells me the same thing that my other
friend who lives in China - the economy sucks and there is no
democracy for the average Chinese worker. Also he tells me that it
is not uncommon to see workers missing body parts or otherwise
severely injured because there are no workplace safety and health
protections in China. So how are they better off than we are?




Once again, you are showing you can't read. I never talked about any
of this stuff, although I know all about it. Where did you get your
ability to fabricate?


I roomed with a very cute girl from Taiwan, who has a mother and
sisters over in Taiwan. I also have two friends who teach
college-level courses in Taiwan. They all watch the mainland and
they say that things aren't as good as you claim them to be.




Well isn't that special. I never claimed they were good. I said
common people can, and do, buy stock. The rest is stuff you imagine
I said.



You wrote about it - not talked about it.

More trolling.

No - simply being precise with words.

And given what I wrote about and the cites I gave, it makes your claim
that common people in China own stock rather unbelievable. Unless you
care to back it up with some cites and facts like I did, you would
fail to score points at any debate except for those held at the Rush
Limbaugh fan club.


I'll humor you. I wrote up a list of the cities I have been to. I know
I forgot a few, but here it is: Beijing, Changsha, Chengdu, Chengde,
Shanghai, Hangzhou, Lijiang, Zhongdian, Zhuhai, Shenzhen, Hong Kong,
Kunming, Guangzhou, Guilin, Yangshuo, Xian, Sanya, Shijiazhuang, Fujian,
Huangshan, Haikou, Zhuhai, Taipei (internationally accepted as being
part of China).

How can you prove it - you can't! I simply asked you to provide some
cites to back up your claims (since you can't prove you were in those
cities - you could have picked them out of an atlas), and you have not
been able to cite anything other than your own experiences.




So I ask you again - do you have anything other than your word to
back up your claim that things in China are doing great? You say
don't read the newspapers - but what should I read for factual
information to back up your claims? Can you cite just 3 sources of
information that back up your claims? If you can't - you lose and
shut the **** up!




I told you. Go there. Visit some farms in the country side. Work
in 15 to 20 cities. Talk to some (mainland) Chinese instead of just
Taiwanese who's view of mainland China is biased. Marry one, instead
of rooming with a "cute girl from Taiwan". Once you've done some of
these things, you'll have a better idea of what China is like.




I don't have to go there - I can take the word of my friends who have
lived on the mainland and and who live there now.


Then you can only go by the second hand information you get from them.
If you actually spent time in China, and worked alongside Chinese and
Taiwanese, you would understand the Taiwanese bias against (mainland)
Chinese. This would help you better understand the opinions they give you.

I get my information from Chinese friends who are there now, and people
who used to live there - it backs up the cites from verifiable sources.
Nothing you have offered can compete with that.

I can base my opinion on the articles published by sources on both
sides of the political aisle. I know what China is like now and I damn
sure wouldn't want to live there now.


That's a pity. It seems you have a closed mind and little desire to
learn about other cultures. There are many beautiful places in China.
The people are friendly, curious and love to learn about what our life
is like. I base my opinion on the time I spend there, the condiditions
I see, the people I worked, lived, and played with.

I wouldn't want to live in a country run by a fascist dicatorship where
I have fewer rights than I have here. I wouldn't want to live in a
country with such a backward health system (remember the SARS problem
last year?). The land up around Durant Road is nice to look at, but I
prefer not to live next to a landfil and smell the garbage rotting in
the summer.

I rather like not living in filth and squallor, with blackouts and
horrible public health problems, and having to worry about losing a
finger, arm or other body parts working in factories with no workplace
health and safety protection.


I've had more power outages since I got home than in all of my time in
China. Yes, there are health and safety problems. Never said there
weren't.


If you liked it so much - why don't you go the **** back there to live?


I actually may for a couple years.

We damn sure don't need anymore people trying to turn the US into
China with a race to the bottom.


More trolling. I didn't say anything about changing the US to be more
like China.

You seem to want people to live more like the chinese - eat less, work
more, have fewer protections and get paid less. As long as we get to
drive cars, have TVs and cell phones - and invest in the stock market.
Isn't that what you wrote earlier?