B=2EdeBurcht wrote:
"a.c." wrote in message
roups.com...
Janet Tweedy wrote:
In article
.com,
a.c.
writes

That is essentially correct, but there should be one.
Dutch (Nederlands)and Flemish {Vlaams} can be distinctly
different.
Assimil, (a good home-language-course supplier)has at least 2
Tallpocket Vlaams booklets, but they're not what you might call
a
dictionary, though that is due to its layout.
An example would be their translation for May (the month)
The book gives it in Dutch (nl) as Mei,
in antwerp it is Maaj,
in Brugs it is Meie
and in Gent it is Maa.


So what's Walloon/Wallon then? I know my father learnt to speak
it
fluently in the War but I thought it was a Flemish dialect.

janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

Belgium has a language border. Imagine the country divided in two
with
Brussels in the centre, but within the upper half. That half is
Vlanderen and they speak Vlaams, though the official language is

Vlaanderen

Vlaanderen. Yes! Thanks for the spelling correction. I sometimes forget
to write ..aa.. and it's a significant mistake, beyond what a spelling
error in English might be. So thanks again.

(aka Southern Netherlands).

That probably just adds to confusion (-:
In school (Ireland) that's how we learnt it, but here (West Vlaanderen)
to imply that any part of Belgium is any part of Netherlands /
Nederland... is likely not to be taken too well.
(& yes, I learnt that the hard way)

The rest is almost correct,

I had deliberately ommitted to count out all 10 provinces, that those
living in 5 Vlaanderen Provinces are the Vlamingen, or that those in
Walloni=EB are Walen and that 60K of them in east are the ones who speak
German.

but
I do admire your effort because the subject matter can be very
confusing. Anyway, even though Vlaanderen/Flanders is used to
describe
the whole northern part of Belgium, Vlaams/Flemish is not spoken by
every person considered to be a Fleming. Calling the whole of the
north Flanders came out of convenience because historically only
people of the Countship of Flanders were, you know, Flemings. In
those
days Flanders encompassed what is now (more or less) the Belgian
provinces of East- & West-Flanders, the Dutch province of
Zeeuws-Vlaanderen and a part of northern France (Lille Flandres (most
placenames are derived from the original Flemish name - like
Duinkerken/Dunkirque, Kales/Calais)).

People from the Province of Brabant (--another historic countship
divided over 3 areas: Vlaams-Brabant, Wallon-Brabant &
(Dutch-)Brabant--) speak one of the Brabantic dialects, people from
Limburg (Flemish- and Dutch-Limburg) a Limburgish one, etc. There are
hundreds of dialects in Flanders, many of them mutualy
unintelligible.
Most of the younger people (including me, I'm nearing 20) rarely, if
ever, speak in a dialect, even though most understand quite a few of
them. This is also the case in Wallonia, where only the older
population speak a Wallon dialect.

It may also interest you that outside of this part of the world,
Flemish is recognised as the original Dutch. Such is the advantage of
attending Nederlands lessons amongst peoples from far away places.

At the risk of an info OD: Dutch comes from Diets/Dietsch/Duytsch
(and
further back from the original Deutsch), all meaning "the people". If
used in it's historically correct form Dutch refers to the people of
the Low Countries (present-day Netherlands, Belgium, N. France &
Luxembourg). So Flemish (and Limburgs, etc.) is not a dialect *of*
Dutch, it's a Dutch dialect - huge difference! Dutch (again, if
used in it's original historical form =3D Diets (pronounced: Deets)) is
the collective name for all the Low-German derived dialects and
languages in that area and consists of Nederlands, Vlaams, Hollands,
Brabants, Limburgs, Gronings, Antwerps, Friesch, ... Each one of
those
dialects can again be divided in subgroups. But for convenience
(govt,
...) Flemish is nowadays used to describe all Dutch dialects in
Belgium and Flanders for all the Dutch-speaking regions of Be.

Modern Dutch (Nederlands) is an amalgamation of all the (at varying
times) dominant dialects (and areas). In order of historical
appearance & attribution that would be Flemish, Brabants and then
Hollandic. Nederlands is the result of mainly these three, so that's
why Flemings speak Dutch. It's always been the language here, only
under different guises and forms.

Now, I hope this wasn't too boring (no surprise there with me being
Belgian and all) but it's hard to make one point on this matter
without attracting the attention of other relevant points. And in a
language not my own. It's all one big confusing drama.

Goig way off topic , but since this interests you so much, last year ,
or the yera before, the following question appeard in The Times
(London) newspaper:
"I was interested to read about Holland .... but where do the
"Dutch" come from?" (From; Q&A, Times, newspaper, February 25)
The replies printed suggested.
1)
That in medieval times the Germanic people with whom the ordinary
Englishman most frequently came into contact were sailors who lived on
the other side of the North Sea. They probably described themselves as
"Deutsch", which was later corrupted in English and written as
"Dutch".
In contrast, the "Germanic" people with whom the English
aristocracy came into contact were the aristocracy of the Holy Roman
Empire. The mutual language of communication that they used was Latin;
hence the area from which they came was described as "Germania",
which later became "Germany".
2)
That from the late Middle Ages to the 16th century, when linguistic
distinctions were not sharply defined, the English often described
anyone speaking a Germanic language as "Doch" or
"T(h)eutonicus", heedless of whether the subject hailed from
Antwerp, Hamburg or Nuremberg. A survey of aliens in London in 1568
found 5,225 "Dutch parsons" but only a meagre 22 "Garmans".
Once the northern provinces of the Habsburg Low Countries gained their
political independence in the early 17th century, it became usual to
distinguish between Dutch and German speakers and their cultures.
"Dutch" derives from the Middle Dutch duuts or diets, which
ultimately stem from the old Germanic word theudo, meaning,
"people".

Whereas:
According to my Kramers Handwoordenboek: Engels-Nederlands /
Nederlands-Engels "Dutch" is given in the former, but not the
latter. Translated into English it would read as; "adjective
Netherlands, Hollands (sic) mainly in America (sometimes also)
Duits."

"Duits" is given in the latter part of the dictionary as;
"adjective German; historical reference Teutonic {Order of
Knights}" Teutonic is given in the first half of the book as;
Teutoons; Germaans noun "het Germaans"





Nederlands (as opposed to Netherlands, the place, or Nederland,
which
is what the Dutch call it) Except in Brussels, where they mainly
speak
French.

Yes, but Brussels is special case, a franchophone-Bruxellois is not a
Walloon. In fact, many French-speaking (not counting immigrants of
course) citizens of Brussels are Frenchified Flemings. Up to about
the
1800's Brussels (original name: (IIRC) Broeckzele) was a mainly
Dutch-speaking (with Brabantic & Brusselse dialects) city. Easily
discernable by the looking at the facades of the Flemish guildhouses
on Brussels' Grote Markt/Grand Place.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't mind. I have plenty of Walloon
friends (they're quite nuts) and my parents own a summer-house there
so don't take this as an attempt at poorly veiled animosity. I'm just
stating the historical facts.

No, I don't mind. I don't even know why I should and it's not
important.

I'm pretty sure you're aware of the supposed (stereotypical) "hatred"
between Flemings and Walloons. TBH, for the most part it's just not
true,

mmm I've encountered some worrying hostility towards them and puzzling
given that when I mention my trips to the Ardenenen there were oohs and
aaas of admiration for it.
I found a link for another garden exhibition (tuin Expo) and I remember
thing it would be in that direction, but can't remember it now.
I have since being informed that I must not expect these shows to
compare with anything in england, albeit that my advisor has never
attended a similar show anywhere within the UK.
Have you done any Tuin Expos and if so, have you been to Uk flowers
shows... and again,,, if so how do they compare?

it's our (many & multiple for such a small country) governments
that do the dirty talk, the rest of us just try to follow our
cherisched Burgundian teachings: eat, drink & be merry. It's just so
annoying that out of the 500 speedcamera's this country counts all
but
4 of them are in Flanders, and the 4 that aren't in Flanders are
aimed
at traffic going out of Wallonia and into Flanders. Swell.. The
Walloon Socialist system is out of control and they can't handle
money
(their cities also need cleaning up). But that's about it.

Then south of that language border, is Wallonie (with 2 dots over
that
e) There they speak French.

The 2 dots (Walloni=EB) only apply if written in Dutch, not if written
in French.

I've just asked about Walloon, but it drew a bit of a blank, except
to
say it may refer to the dialect in that region... and that would be
a
French dialect, not Dutch and therefore not Vlaams.

Indeed, there are several Wallon dialects and all are related to
French (& Celtic).

My girlfried rather enjoyed meeting my South African friends when I
was
in London, and this was although her English is excellent, she was
quite faccinated by their Afrikaans
=20
--Bas (Limburg/Flanders/Belgium)