Hi Len thanks for the reply.

I think its well understood that deep rooted vegetation helps to lower
the water table which helps to reduce salinity within the immediate area.

I agree that past farming practices were/are not particularly suited to
the oz situation, but I don't buy into the argument that farmers are to
blame for the rising salt levels, some folks would have us believe that
farmers are hell bent on destroying the environment just to make a buck,
I say thats total BS, when us white folks landed here we used what we
knew, the tools and practices to grow food were what we brought with us
from our respective countries.

The early settlers had no way of knowing that the practices their
families had used for thousands of years would create any probs in this
new environment.

Dry land salinity was around then .... its not something that was
created by farmers as a result of bad practice, it may have been
worsened in areas which were sensitive and damaged by the early farming
techniques ...clear felling etc, but it's not the cause, if the soil
structure had been favourable to those farming practices we would be
hailing the farmers as environmental saviors ... remember they didnt
have soil tests, PH kits, salinity measuring or modeling tools, access
to seed other than what they or their peers brought with them or access
to specialised tools for minimum till, direct drilling ...there was no
permapine fence posts sold at the rural supplies ... all fence posts had
to be cut from the land, the house had to be built from timber from the
land .... even the roof shingles, thats no different than a
permaculturist clearing a patch of ground to use the timber to build a
chookhouse so that it creates a space for veggie growing nearby.... the
old "use the resources available" technique was the only technique they had.

The plows available were the moldboard type used for many many years
very effectively and pulled by horse or bullock of course on beautiful
friable soil the compaction was minimal, but used on the type of sodic
clays that are around many parts of Oz results in compaction and damage
that takes some serious restoration work .... but what else could they
use? ..... nothing, they used what they had and knew and they should be
applauded for the sheer determination and true grit they showed, instead
they are blamed for just about any problem we have.

Sure many many mistakes were made ...still are today ...even with our
highly paid consultants and computer modeling, our GPS systems and
special computer designed planning procedures and land management
techniques, we have world experts on water use, feed stocks, feed rates,
salinity, native tree experts, fungi experts, scientists doing
research into how much fat a sheep/cow/pig etc should have, we have
nutritionists working out the optimum feed to meat conversion,
agronomists working out the optimum fertiliser application rates ...and
the list goes on and on and on ......... and we STILL make mistakes ....
imagine the farmer disembarking onto Aussie soil in the 1800's with Wife
and kids, a cow, a horse or ox and a plough, enough woodworking tools to
cut and shape wood to make a house and enough seed and knowledge to grow
food till the next harvest ..... nope I don't ... can't put the blame
for mistakes on those folks they did what they had to do to survive ...
as it turned out those early practices were bad for the aussie soils and
climate.

Enter the era of "modern" farming, huge companies producing fertilisers,
herbicides, insecticides, the pre cleared land offering potential for
1000 acre paddocks and enormous potential for farming on a truly grand
scale ... the banks are throwing money at farmers to encourage them to
get bigger so that they can produce more and borrow more money to buy
bigger tractors, bigger and better ploughs, slashers, seeders ... the
fertiliser companies finding huge phosphate resources, telling farmers
your problems are solved ...spray this, spread that apply this and it
will increase your profits 10 fold...you can make oodles of cash ..the
banks like this idea and encourage more borrowing....

Then when things don't work out the scapegoat is the farmer ....

Buy a copy of "The stock journal" ... and tell me the type of adverts
that appear in there are not designed to lead ANY farmer ...ANY person
reading them ....to believe that every product on sale will " boost
production, increase yield, reduce invasive weeds, reduce fly strike,
eliminate soil erosion, contain stock better than ever before" .... and
on and on.

Don't blame the farmers .... they are as caught up in the system as we
as average consumers are caught up in the throw away, mass production,
built in obsolesance society that has emerged because we all believed
that "things made from plastic/Teflon/pvc etc was going to be cheaper
than wood/metal ..that computers would make things simpler and reduce
costs thereby reducing prices" .... and all the other hype that the
advertisers would have us believe.

To ask a farmer to completely abandon a practice that produces enough
return to keep his/her head above water every year and try techniques
that we as permaculturists, organic gardeners or just plain "interested
parties" think are great, is like telling someone who works in any other
field (pardon the pun) that their lifes work is totally wrong and
everything they are doing is ruining the country ...and WE have the
answer .... if we do that are we not as bad as the advertisers telling
the farmers that they are using the wrong spray if they are not using
OUR spray ?


Some of the land that is now mapped as the worst affected dryland
salinity areas have never, ever had any farming on them ... so how do
people presume that bad land management is to blame for the salt in
those areas?

There have always been inland lakes in Oz ... lakes that are saline, and
some much more saline than sea water the soils around those areas are
salty, the evaporation rates far in excess of the rainfall and the soil
structure usually ranging from silt to fine clay particles with no
organic content in them... and thats why I think that the answer to the
salt symptom is to create soil ...real soil which has water holding
capacity, organic content, available nutrients that the plants can
access and a structure that will withstand the harsh conditions and
erosive effects of the blistering sun and driving winds, only then will
we be able to grow the deep rooted veg needed to reduce the salt content.


But what do I know? nothing basically ... whats working for me could be
absolutely the wrong thing for the aussie environment ...just as those
early farmers found things which worked for them, which 200 years later
have been found to be the wrong things to do .....

All I know is I'm growing a bit of veg in very salty ground, nothing
really earth shattering is taking place, I'm adding organic content,
ensuring the areas get as much rainfall as they can by using any
contours and trying to use excess vegetation as mulch and to return
nutrients to those areas.

Now ...see ya made me rant on ... I wasn't gonna rant for once and
Now I have .....again ...sorry...again


End of rant
Pete
















len gardener wrote:
g'day pete,

dunno if you will ever find a difinitive answer as the agancies tend
to hedge around the real cause in a cause and effect situation.

the best and only way i know of that nature had employed to keep the
salt table down was trees particularly the gum trees, so naturally any
rehabilitation that way is going to take a very long time to even
begin to work. at the very least probably somewhere up near 70 years.

that's just how i see it these are the damages caused by long term
european style agriculture on the fragile soils and systems of
australia. styles that are still being emplyed although i hear farmer
types saying that the tree are need they still folloow the same clear
fell folly.

i will help with the web page as best i can i'm sure we can help you
get something online.

glad to see you still about pete, remember when you use te return addy
delete SPAM before sending, glad to help where i can hey and i'm no
tree hugger if they weren't needed then why did nature grow them?

len

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