I have noticed several things in paghat's replies on this topic.

For one, she talks about her experiences with Elm Trees and Roses. Does she
grow apples or plums? She quotes a lot about this study and that, but what direct
experience does she have herself. For every reference she quotes about organic
methods, I can find an equal number of those advocating spraying with chemicals.

Paghat also fails to make a distinction between commercial orchards and home orchards.
A commercial orchard cannot closely monitor the effects of hundreds of
trees, and therefore takes a 'blanket' approach to control. The more sophisticated
of these orchards will put out traps to determine what type of insect is attacking, and
when best to treat for it. A home orchardist can be more selective and can do a better
job of monitoring pest damage.

Although I concentrated on insects, fungus problems are also something which can
ruin your crop, and even kill your fruit trees. I have not found any organic fungicides
that work effectively, and I have tried quite a few, like Rhotenone.

Lastly, Paghat thinks she can win this argument with documentation. I have examined
some of this material and have found no substantial evidence that organic
methods can control the problems already mentioned. The growers in my Fruit Club
who use organic methods are limited to two choices. Accepting a goodly amount of
ruined fruit and/or limiting themselves to certain disease resistant varieties, which only
takes care of fungus, but not insect problems. I work too hard maintaining my trees to
see the fruits of my labor thrown away by insect infestation. Not to mention the trees
that are lost by insects like borers. I consider the state of the art, that organic methods
can be used to cut down on problems, but have not quite reached the point where they alone
can do the complete job. Unfortunately, the new varieties of apples that are disease
resistant, although improving, have not equaled the taste and flavor of other apples.

If Paghat can grow fruit without spraying, she is certainly a most fortunate person.

Sherwin D.

paghat wrote:

In article , sherwindu
wrote:

Now that we have heard from all the 'organics', lets hear the other side
of the
story.

There are certain insect pests that cannot be effectively controlled
with organic
methods. I know because I have been growing fruit for over 20 years and have
tried all the organic sprays and controls.

The best method of apple maggot control is the use visual traps for the
adult flies before they lay their eggs, ADDING a natural host odor with
the trap [Rull et al, Entomologia Experimentalis et Applicata, January
2005 -- note the date, it is very recent research that has shown the
effectiveness of non-sparying techniques].

While it has become a cliche that no organic spray is half as effective as
highly toxic organophosphate type pesticides, it is now well established
that methods other than spraying can be completely effective. Because crop
value is higher for organic crops, there is no net gain by using potent
toxins [Reissig, Journal of Economic Entomology, Oct 2003].

Once a grower realizes spraying is not the best or primary method (organic
or otherwise) comparisons of organic vs non-organic spraying becomes moot.
But fact is, the 2001-2002 Cornell study headed by Terence Robinson of
organic apple techniques (tested in New York & Ontario) discovered control
of apple maggot with organically approved Surround was completely
effective. So the popular cliche that only harmful organophosphate
insecticides work is now conclusively known to be false.

Comparative analysis in Quebec conducted over a ten year period found that
completely unsprayed apple orchards had infestation rates ranging from 0
to 4.1% [Vincent & Mailloux, Annales de la Societe Entomolique de France,
1988; Vincent & Roy, Acta Entomologica et Phytopathologica Hungarica,
1992]. Unless losses exceed 5% it is counterproductive & unnecessary to
even consider chemical spraying. Any gains from using toxins are more than
offset by the extra costs of chemicals plus the lowered value of
non-organic crops.

If apples were not permitted to rot on the ground, the orchard would not
have any apple maggot pupae overwintering in the soil, & the only threat
of infestation is from adult flies coming from outside the orchard. Often
removal of elderly apple trees & hawthorns from surrounding properties is
the only control required. In all cases, by the time eggs are laid, the
maggots are impervious to toxins; so stopping the adult flies at the
periphery becomes the goal. Even growers who do use pesticides often use
them exclusively OFF the periphery of the orchards & NOT on the trees
themselves [Thimble & Solmae in Crop Protection, 1997] since a clean
orchard has no emerging flies inside the periphery. Others who use
insecticides do so only in the scent-baited sticky-traps again to keep
poisons off the crop.

The milestone research of the late Ron Prokopy (who died last year) with
even just unscented traps triggered a revolution in organic apple growing
that left the chemical-dependent growers in the pesticidal dust. Chemical
dependency bred chemical dependency, & here in Washington as the
chemical-dependent growers went bankrupt one after another, organic
growers flourish. The more recent (even just within the last four years)
scent-baiting of the Prokopy traps has has made trap strategies so
extremely effective that organic apple growers have either fewer or no
more losses than lazier less knowledgeable growers who spray & thus
produce a less valuable harvest. Effectiveness of Prokopy sticky traps
PLUS host scent is today the preferred method of apple maggot control,
preserving the added value of organic crops.

The big reason some orchards would still spray today is because they are
producing pig-feed apples & it is too labor intensive both to maintain
bait-scented traps & to clean up fallen apples, when in any case the crop
will remain poorly valued.

In Washington state the primary threat to fully organic apple orchards are
infestations bleeding over from trees grown in the back yards of
homeowners who do not know to control apple maggot with scented
stickytraps, & who let fallen apples remain on the ground so that the next
year's infestation developes. Sponsored programs to involve morons, I mean
backyard amateurs, in the use of scented traps, even providing the traps
for free, & educating the amateurs on the necessity of immediately
cleaning apples off the ground before the worms crawl into the ground to
pupate, is far more effective than trundling out increasing numbers of
increasingly toxic chemicals & pretending there is no way around them --
though certainly the chemical industry's propoganda encourages that
misguided belief. Only the chemical companies themselves continue
promulgate the so-called "integrated" system of traps plus toxic spraying.

-paghat the ratgirl

I still utilize a combination of organic
methods, like trapping insects on sticky balls and dormant oil. I have
yet to find
an organic method to effectively control apple maggot, for starters.
Like any other
technique, spraying can be done correctly, or not. You should not spray
insecticide
(fungicide is ok) when your trees are in blossom. That indeed will kill
any bees around.
You should not locate your trees near your vegetable garden. You should
spray on near windless days, so that it stays confined to your orchard area.
You should wear protective gear, including breathing masks, and not
spray when kids or
pets are around. This all makes it sound a bit dangerous, but so is
getting on the freeway
with all the idiot drivers. If you want the majority of your fruit to
be clean,
you probably have to spray in your location, especially since you have
already noticed
what sounds like heavy insect damage.

I would recommend a general orchard spray (Bonide makes one, for
example). It
contains a combination of insecticides and fungicides. These types of
sprays are
meant to cover most orchard problems, but if you have a more serious
situation, you
may have to go to a specific spray which targets it. Try the orchard
spray first, and
then see how it goes.

You may have had a better reception if you had gone to
rec.gardens.edible, where there
seems to be more people growing fruit.

Good Luck,

Sherwin D.
--
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