On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:15:57 -0700,
(paghat) wrote:

In article , John Bachman
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:08:47 -0700,
(paghat) wrote:

In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...


This is all reasonable advice, but realize this:

You're giving it to someone who is completely in the dark, and not just
with
regard to gardening. So, it's important to point out garden
chemicals have
not been and can never be correctly tested for safety. I'm sure you're
aware
of that.


Nonsense. If the material is used in strict compliance to the
instructions on the label (and it should not be used in any other way)
safety is assured. Those instructions include dosages, personal
protective equipment requirements and minimum re-entry intervals.

Nonsense.

snipped the pharmetulogical analagy

It is hard to escape old patterns of thought. John really believes apple
maggot MUST be treated with synthetic pesticides because nothing else
works -- it's a claim so many have made so often that just like sasquatch
sightings it MUST be true. If he is shown the conclusive studies from
Cornell & elsewhere that prove this common lore is false, he'll just come
up with yet another pest he believes cannot be controlled except by the
same harshest most harmful methods he is predisposed to believe in. He
strongly believes in the magical incantation "safe if used as directed"
but even he adds so many provisos he clearly knows it's one hell of a big
"if."
Please cite anything I have written about apple maggot. You will fail
as I have never written on that subject.


John has for many years in this group advocated "the right chemical for
the right job" -- he's a true believer in the trustworthiness of chemical
industry sales pitches. If there's a better organic method, he's not
incapable of realizing it, but he's going to fall behind the learning
curve. I try always to remember this is the same guy who praised cowshit
for "that farmy smell" -- gotta love a guy like that (as for me, I very
swiftly learned never to stop for a hitchhiker in bib overalls near a
dairy, as the car will smell like cowshit for the rest of the day).

Please cite just one time that I have promoted "the right chemical for
the right job." Also, when I said anything about cowshit. You will
fail for I have never done either.

Some may praise paghat but she is is off the mark this time and has
demeaned me with false accusations. Bad paghat!

John


snip
If you never made the "farmy smell" post there must be two John Bachmans.
Ever since you or your evil twin posted about the glories of the farmy
smell of cow manure, Granny Artemis & I have incorporated the phrase
"ahhh, that lovely farmy smell!" as our recurring synonym for "cowshit"
every time we drive by a dairy. I just this minute did a google-groups
search on the phrase "farmy smell" to find out if I'd been miscrediting
that lovely discription of cowshit to the wrong fellow. I only got one
hit, & it certainly appears to be you saying how much you enjoy the "farmy
smell" of cow manu
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gardens.edible/msg/813bab6a3eab3f95?dmode=source&hl=en
Ahh, the memory power of google exceeds my own. It seems that a reply
I made to a survey posted by a would-be book writer in 2000 caught
pighat's attention. Although the term "cowshit" was not used, cow
manure was, and I confessed a preference to the "farmy smell" of cow
vs other varieties.

I stand corrected and apologize to pighat for accusing her of making
stuff up.

I think I remember pretty correctly your recurring advocacies of the right
chemical properly used, though that certainly was not an exact quote as
"farmy smell" was. Maybe you just don't know how your advocacy sounds
sometimes. Very much in keeping with your post in this thread asserting
that following label instructions renders all pesticides totally safe --
that's just untrue. The reality is that "used as directed," pesticides &
herbicides have done great harm to watersheds & lakes & locally to Hood
Canal, it took no off-label use to do great harm. Used strictly as
directed, these chemicals have accumulative effects which label
instructions don't take into consideration, combining effects when other
chemicals are added into the garden mix according to THEIR directions, all
of which degrades or combines into still other chemicals, many
carcinogenic, none of those assessed before those misleading instructions
are concocted.

Indeed the labeling is vastly more for legal rather than safety concerns.

While the label provides legal protection to the manufacturer if the
user misapplies the product, that is not a bad thing. The labels also
meet the requirements of the EPA for approval for use.

However, the labels also provide detailed instructions for the use of
the product in areas that I mentioned above and also with regard to
application in proximity to waterways, public water supplies and
private wells.

I believe that if the restrictions are followed, the product can be
used safely.



Really I was responding to your untrue statement that "another pest" (I
assumed you meant in addition to the apple maggot that had just been
discussed in the thread) that cannot be controlled organically was plum
curculio. You were dead wrong but i weary sometimes of correcting that
sort of misinformation & so posted about your love of cowshit instead,
thinking myself amusing rather than bad for it.

Both those orchard pests are now pretty easily controlled organically.
That plum curulio was once believed to have no effective organic control
was disproven a good five years ago, when the final barriers hampering
organic orchards in the Northeast fell away (Pacific Nrthwest organic
orcharders didn't want the sudden competition & were sorry the
Northeasterners wised up).

Surround is approved as an organic pesticide. The effective ingredient of
Surround is natural clay kaolin (hard to call it "active" ingredient since
it is inert). Field trials overseen by Drs. Michael Glenn & Gary Puterka
of the USDA found that orchards that had been experiencing 20 to 30
percent damage from plum curculio dropped to .5 to 1% damage with
application of Surround. (It could well be that with broader organic
principles in place, even Surround would not be necessary, but commercial
orchards are by their nature not mixed-species environments so it's hard
to achieve the prophelactic balance that is easier in a more complex
community of gardened plants).

Surround does indeed provide effective control of plum curculio when
applied according to it's label. That requires reapplication after
every significant rain as Surround washes off easily and complete
coverage is essential.

It also necessary to use a large amount of surround to get effective
coverage 0.5#/gallon is recommended. That is a lot of material to
apply after every rain.

Will some homeowners use Surround effectively? Yes, some will.

I will stick with Imidan at the rate of 1#/50 gallons applied every 10
- 14 days and follow all of the other label instructions. Then I will
eat my perfect fruits with full confidence that it is safe to do so.

John