"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"michael adams" writes:
|
| | Spade = black person.
| |
| | Nowadays yes. But I doubt if that was the case in 1589 when it
| | was first used in English. That usage came from playing cards
| | I believe.
|
| Do you have a reference for that? The OED has nothing before 1928.
|
| A reference to what ?
|
| The phrase "as black as the ace of spades"

That would do, certainly, provided that it was dated 1589. Please
reread what YOU posted about 1589.

| It doesn't even have a reference to the card suit before 1598.
|
| Er no Nick, you seem to be missing the point.
|
| References to dark skinned people as spades i.e Colin McInnes
| "City of Spades" c. 195* clearly came after the reference was
| already established to the card suit.

I am unaware that Colin McInnes was writing in 1589, but I learn
something new every day.

....

Digital dyslexia must put you at a marked disadvantage as a
mathematician I'd have thought.

You have my deepest sympathy.

....



As I said, the OED has a reference to "spade" meaning "negro" in 1928,
which I am quite happy to agree probably came after the expression
"as black as the ace of spades", though I have no reference to prove
the point. The issue is your claim for a date of 1589.

....

1542 then. But then I'm no mathematician.

In answer to your first use of the phrase -

"We call a spade a spade."

I posted the following - (to save you wearing your fingers any nearer
to the bone I should perhaps add that "unassailable Internet authority"
is intended with tongue firmly in cheek)


michael adams" wrote in message
...

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...


This is uk.rec.gardening. We call a spade a spade.

According to one unassailable Internet authority, that phrase
originated from an ancient Greek expression: _ta syka syka, te:n
skaphe:n de skaphe:n onomasein_ = "to call a fig a fig, a trough a
trough".
It was translated into English in 1542 by Nicholas
Udall in his translation of Erasmus's version as "to call a spade
[...] a spade".

above from -

http://www.yaelf.com/aueFAQ/miftocllspdspd.shtml


I notice you have yet to explain precisely what you mean to
imply by your the use of phrase -

"We call a spade a spade."

Unless you can describe any circumstance in which anyone could
possibly be offended by the use of the term "spade", I fail to
see the point of stating the blindingly obvious.

Anyone who decided to call a spade a fork, or a spade a rake would
very soon find themselves at a marked disadvantage, I'd have thought.

Wouldn't you ?

...


| This topic didn't feature in the recent Victoria Coren telly prog
| by any chance did it ? No wonder you let your attention wander.

Who is Victoria Coren? Never heard of her.


She's the daughter of Alan Coren.


michael adams

....



Regards,
Nick Maclaren.