Ok-- please forgive the top post.....
OP means "original poster" which is helpful when several people
respond to a thread with multiple thoughts.
Air layering, like grafting, is a form of asexual reproduction.
Asexual propagation results in a clone or genetically identical
specimen to the original. Sexual reproduction results in a new
specimen with genes of both parents. Air layering is a technique
which may look similar to the process you described in your
original post.
Very simply, undifferentiated cells are those which have not been
predestined to become a certain type of cell and therefore have
the ability to develop into whatever needs to be regenerated.
Differentiated cells are those that can not change. For example,
apple leaves contain mature leaf cells. In order for those cells
to turn into an apple tree, one or more of those cells would have
to convert to meristematic condition to develop a new growing
point. 'Stem cells' is short for meristems, which are those that
come from embryonic cells and have never developed into specific
cells with specific functions.
I suggested that harvesting tomatoes from 90 feet in the air might
be difficult as a response to your suggestion that it would be
interesting to graft a tomato to a Eucalyptus. Very few Eucalyptus
attain a mature height of only 10-15 feet. By the way, ever try to
catch a tossed vine ripe tomato from a distance of 10'?
I still say science fiction to the tomato/eucalyptus graft. While
there are countless theoretical, hypothetical, yet to be realized,
and insightful ideas out there, I believe science has proven that
you can't graft a giraffe to a goldfish successfully.
--
elizabeth, Baton Rouge, LA
http://community.webshots.com/user/elott63
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark
Newsgroups: rec.gardens.edible
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 3:53 PM
Subject: grafting, can it be done or is it a science
fiction?
Thanks for reply.
1. #1 sounds like the OP has seen some air layering
1a. what is "OP"?
1b. what is "air layering"
1c. Do you mean that I am "OP" and have seen some "air layering"
that
looks like
procedure I have described in making the mash from the leaves?
Maybe I am an "OP", whatever it means (hope nothing bad). But I
definitely did not see "air layering". The reason I have come
out with
this idea is very simple.
If you have a cut, before it heals there is some kind of liquid
coming
to surface of the wound. Not only healing process needs it but I
am
sure it is faster with it than without it.
If you use analogy more to the plant you would try to do same
thing
with the plant.
When the wound on human body heals, even there is some foreign
body
(e.g. splinter) in the wound, the juice will cover it and wound
will
heal even there is a foreign body inside The wound. I would
think that
something similar will happen with the plant and even better
since the
plants are more primitive than animals the process of fusion
must be
more successfull than with the species from animal kingdom.
So, this is where my idea comes from. Again, I am sure that
somebody
who does grafting may see a lot of obstacles in this. This is
Ok,
because I am almost sure that answer lies somewhere between
gardening
and genetics. I am just trying to get information from people
versed in
gardening, so when next time I will try this issue with people
versed
in genetics I will be able to use terminology from gardening
(e.g.
buds, "cambium", "OP", "air layering")
2. apple leaves do not contain undifferentiated (stem) cells.
In
order to clone, these
are necessary. They can be found in buds and in cambium, but not
in leaves.
2a.undifferentiated (stem) cells) Can you, please in couple
of
words explain to me what does it mean "undifferentiated (stem)
cells)".
As apposed to "differentiated (stem) cells"? Can you give me
example
from the plants of "differentiated stems cells"?
From animal world? Both. Differentiated" and
"Undifferentiated"?
2b.are you saying that if I try buds or "cambium" I have better
chance
than leaves?
2c. What is "cambium"?
Thanks again.
Please, do not use my ignorance in the issues, that seems
obvious to
you. against me.
I am just interested and want to try things without going to
school. I
do not have time for that and also think that simple things
that you
do in garden do not need an university degree.
If it would, than how all our ancestors were able at the time
when
there was not even "public school" concept domesticate animals
and
breed plants that we use today.
And most of it has happened 10,000 to 20,000 years ago, when
there was
not yet a written language around. Would not you agree that
people that
did it did not have formal education in genetics or biology?
So, if they could why we can not? You would not think that
"education
hurts" and we are less intelligent than they have been?
3tomatoes from 90 feet in the air
3.aFirst, why 90? why not 10-15? something that is easy to
reach.
3.bSecond, who has said that you would have to climb to pick it
up?
Maybe it is cheaper to shake the tree and catch it in soft net?
An then
just carefully unfold the net and it all roll in in some kind of
bunker? Also only the tomatoes that are ripe enough to fall down
from
shaking? Maybe depending on how strong is the shaking you can
insure
only certain degree of ripeness? Would not you want to eat ripe
tomatoes instead of green being picked up? Maybe the tomato that
grows
this way will be not only sweet but also hard enough? This way
you do
not have to pick up individual tomatoes? Also this way they do
not fall
on the soil and get spoiled before you pick them up.?
3c.Who has said that the only right way to pick up tomatoes is
to walk
between the rows and use your hands? I have been driving and
have seen
some kind of combain that goes , cuts complete plant, chews it
up and
spits out the leaves and branches on one side and tomato on the
other.
Probably very expensive machine, but it does work, and can do
in one
day what probably 200-300 people in a day do.
3d.Would not you think that instead of watering an acre, if you
water
it from the top of the tree you would have to water just 100-200
square
feet?
4.90 feet in the air
4.aAt 90 feet I would plant something that when living and doing
some
excretion, would benefit the tomatoes living at 10-15 feet.
Maybe
something that excreets some additional food the tomatoes need.
Or
water. Or fertilizer? I do not know.
First I want to grow the tomato at 10 feet. Then we can make
next step
and think how to utilize space at 20 feet.
"Mark" wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks for reply.
1. #1 sounds like the OP has seen some air layering
1a. what is "OP"?
1b. what is "air layering"
1c. Do you mean that I am "OP" and have seen some "air layering"
that
looks like
procedure I have described in making the mash from the leaves?
Maybe I am an "OP", whatever it means (hope nothing bad). But I
definitely did not see "air layering". The reason I have come
out with
this idea is very simple.
If you have a cut, before it heals there is some kind of liquid
coming
to surface of the wound. Not only healing process needs it but I
am
sure it is faster with it than without it.
If you use analogy more to the plant you would try to do same
thing
with the plant.
When the wound on human body heals, even there is some foreign
body
(e.g. splinter) in the wound, the juice will cover it and wound
will
heal even there is a foreign body inside The wound. I would
think that
something similar will happen with the plant and even better
since the
plants are more primitive than animals the process of fusion
must be
more successfull than with the species from animal kingdom.
So, this is where my idea comes from. Again, I am sure that
somebody
who does grafting may see a lot of obstacles in this. This is
Ok,
because I am almost sure that answer lies somewhere between
gardening
and genetics. I am just trying to get information from people
versed in
gardening, so when next time I will try this issue with people
versed
in genetics I will be able to use terminology from gardening
(e.g.
buds, "cambium", "OP", "air layering")
2. apple leaves do not contain undifferentiated (stem) cells.
In
order to clone, these
are necessary. They can be found in buds and in cambium, but not
in leaves.
2a.undifferentiated (stem) cells) Can you, please in couple
of
words explain to me what does it mean "undifferentiated (stem)
cells)".
As apposed to "differentiated (stem) cells"? Can you give me
example
from the plants of "differentiated stems cells"?
From animal world? Both. Differentiated" and "Undifferentiated"?
2b.are you saying that if I try buds or "cambium" I have better
chance
than leaves?
2c. What is "cambium"?
Thanks again.
Please, do not use my ignorance in the issues, that seems
obvious to
you. against me.
I am just interested and want to try things without going to
school. I
do not have time for that and also think that simple things
that you
do in garden do not need an university degree.
If it would, than how all our ancestors were able at the time
when
there was not even "public school" concept domesticate animals
and
breed plants that we use today.
And most of it has happened 10,000 to 20,000 years ago, when
there was
not yet a written language around. Would not you agree that
people that
did it did not have formal education in genetics or biology?
So, if they could why we can not? You would not think that
"education
hurts" and we are less intelligent than they have been?
3tomatoes from 90 feet in the air
3.aFirst, why 90? why not 10-15? something that is easy to
reach.
3.bSecond, who has said that you would have to climb to pick it
up?
Maybe it is cheaper to shake the tree and catch it in soft net?
An then
just carefully unfold the net and it all roll in in some kind of
bunker? Also only the tomatoes that are ripe enough to fall down
from
shaking? Maybe depending on how strong is the shaking you can
insure
only certain degree of ripeness? Would not you want to eat ripe
tomatoes instead of green being picked up? Maybe the tomato that
grows
this way will be not only sweet but also hard enough? This way
you do
not have to pick up individual tomatoes? Also this way they do
not fall
on the soil and get spoiled before you pick them up.?
3c.Who has said that the only right way to pick up tomatoes is
to walk
between the rows and use your hands? I have been driving and
have seen
some kind of combain that goes , cuts complete plant, chews it
up and
spits out the leaves and branches on one side and tomato on the
other.
Probably very expensive machine, but it does work, and can do
in one
day what probably 200-300 people in a day do.
3d.Would not you think that instead of watering an acre, if you
water
it from the top of the tree you would have to water just 100-200
square
feet?
4.90 feet in the air
4.aAt 90 feet I would plant something that when living and doing
some
excretion, would benefit the tomatoes living at 10-15 feet.
Maybe
something that excreets some additional food the tomatoes need.
Or
water. Or fertilizer? I do not know.
First I want to grow the tomato at 10 feet. Then we can make
next step
and think how to utilize space at 20 feet.
Elizabeth wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
"Mark" wrote in message
ups.com...
Somebody knowledgeable in grafting probably will laugh at
this,
but,
please, dont.
Anyway, here is what I want I know and what I want to do:
What I know can be done
even I have never done that) make
pears grow
on apple tree by attaching a branch from pear tree to the
trunk or
spot on apple tree wher the aple tree branch is coming from.
You could with the right technique graft apples and pears
with
some degree
of success.
Now questions.
#1. Will this scenarioo work?
I cut out 10-15 cm of the skin from the branch of apple
tree;
just the
skin not going deep in the wood. Then I take apple leaves;
water, blend
it in the blender a little bit until I have a paste. Put
this
paste in
the pouch made from cooton towel.
Put in the pouch a seedling of apple tree with some soild
soil. Make
sure the seedlings go thru the hole in the pouch as if it
would
look
when you buy it from the store; just instead of the pot it
is
in the
pouch.
Place the pouch on the top of tree "wound". Tie it up to the
branch
with wet piece of the same towel. Tie it up. Keep it moist.
Can
I
expect the new apple tree penetrate the branch, fuse with
it,
and
starting to grow?
Sounds crazy to me. Where on earth did you get this from?
#2. You probably ask why all this so complicated, when it
can
be done
much easier with regular grafting. Reason for that is that,
if
the
answer to question # 1 is "yes"; what I really want is to
try
instead
of planting apple tree; what I want is to try something like
plant a
tomato plant on the branch of equaliptyus tree. Now it is
probably from
the realm of scince fiction or is it possible?
You will not have any joy trying to graft widely different
species together,
the only reason apples and pears might work is that they are
closely
related.
BTW what is an "equaliptyus tree" ? If you mean "eucalyptus"
no
chance with
a tomato.
David
#1 sounds like the OP has seen some air layering. Some
significant
issues to overcome would include the fact that apple leaves do
not
contain undifferentiated (stem) cells. In order to clone, these
are necessary. They can be found in buds and in cambium, but
not
in leaves. Therefore the apple leaves can not develop roots,
bark
or any other type of cell. Science fiction.
#2 Tomatoes and eucalytpus are about as closely related as
giraffes and goldfish. Different genes, chromosomes and
physiology, not to mention how difficult it would be to pick
tomatoes from 90 feet in the air. Bad science fiction.
--
elizabeth, Baton Rouge, LA
http://community.webshots.com/user/elott63