I wanted to add a bit more (okay a lot more) info to this thread. It
started because a potential customer wrote to ask me if I could prove my
plants were legal incase he ever wanted to show them. Which made me
question if the AOS has a policy of asking for proof. I already know from
CITES that, if I am not the importer of the plant, all I CAN offer when I
sell a plant is a receipt; which can not address the issue of proof for many
reasons.

Amway:

1.) As far as I am able to determine at this point in time, the AOS does
not officially police the transfer of plants from vendor to vendor or from
vendor to customer/exhibitor.The AOS does not have any policy in place that
requires exhibitors to show proof of legality when they show a plant. This
means there is no across the board guideline for show chairs or judges to
follow. Some show chairs and judging locations may have guidelines of their
own. So if you sit a plant in front of them and they question you, ask to
see those guidelines. All you should need, (unless you are the original
importer) is a receipt; which, BTW, is NOT proof a plant is legally obtained
because CITES will already know you have it if you are the original importer
named on it and if you are not it means nothing if you present it with your
plant.

Sometimes the CITES import document is offered when newly legal plants are
sold within this country, but it is not proof the plants you are buying are
legally imported and is kind of scary if you get it and the vendor you got
it from is NOT named on it at all; meaning they are not the original
importer. (I have one of these for a flask of Paph gigantefolium. It means
nothing. I do have the receipt from the vendor. However, neither document
is proof my flask comes from plants that were legally imported.)

2.) CITES does not police the transfer of plants from vendor to vendor once
a plant crosses the border into the USA. A copy of the original CITES
document from the county of origin to the importer is not proof you are
buying plants legally obtained, even if the vendor you are buying them from
is the original importer.

3.) The is no law or official guideline from CITES to handle the transfer of
plants already in the country. If you are in the USA and are buying a plant
from a vendor in the USA and you have a question about its legal status,
contact CITES. If you buy it, obtain a receipt that has the vendor's name
and address on it as well as the name of the plant and the date of sale.
Keep it for your records. This, however, is NOT proof the plant was legally
imported.

4.) If you ever have a question about a plant's legal status in this county,
contact CITES. CITES is the only organization that can tell you if it has
ever granted permits for a particular species to enter this country. Once
it is here, it is not possible to track what happens to it. Unless you are
involved in the import/export of plants OR selling/ reselling them; you
probably do not have to worry about having plants confiscated. If you show
a plant and a show chair or judge questions the legality of it, they should
accept your word that you bought it from a vendor in this country
(especially if you have a receipt) and IF they still have questions they
should contact CITES because ONLY CITES can tell them if a species has ever
been granted a CITES import document.

Once it is here they do NOT track it or it's offspring, so depending on the
time lapsed from the first CITES document, once might GUESS at a plants
legality, but only the CITES enforcement arm and a conviction of smuggling
can prove a plant in your possession is illegally obtained, so if they turn
your plant away at a judging or show exhibit, it is my opinion that you
should raise hell and use the word "lawyer" ; especially if you have done
your homework by contacting CITES and learned how long ago the species in
question was imported for the first time with legal status.

5.) and if you have read this far, good for you.

According to Roddy Gobels from CITES, Paph vietnamensis has NEVER been
granted a permit to LEAVE Vietnam and enter the USA, so there can be no
CITES document anywhere in the paper trail for this species or it's hybrids
in the USA. However, plants that were imported ILLEGALLY were intercepted
by CITES and sent to one of the United States plant holding facilities run
by the US Botanical Gardens (USBG), By CITES treaty law confiscated plants
have to be offered back to the country of origin (Vietnam in this case) BUT
Vietnam declined and the plants stayed here in the possession of the US
government. The USBG can not sell them or give them away, but they entered
into an agreement with ANTEC labs to produce seedlings and sell them in the
USA in exchange for some of the seedlings Antec produced.

This means that all "legal" plants of paph veitnamensis and it's hybrids
trace back to a receipt from Antec. There is no CITES import document to
ask for or receive and the USBG doesn't/didn't offer any official paper I
am aware of to ANTEC with their permission. Before I bought my plants from
Antec I asked Roddy Gobels from CITES (he is a member of my local orchid
society) about these plants and he told me CITES was aware of the
arrangement with Antec and the USBG. I have never been clear about how this
arrangement made these plants legal because the USBG is not allowed to give
away or sell plants, but CITES did not concern themselves with these plants
except to confirm that Vietnam declined to have them returned when they were
offered and that they were aware of the arrangement between the USBG and
Antec. This conversation took place early in 2003.

At this point, September 2006, several vietnamenis have been shown in the
USA. One has been awarded. (actually two have been awarded, the CBR and
the AM, but one was invalidated due to the timing of one award with the
other)

At several local show/sales, this plant has been available for sale in bud
by the tray full, so this plant is here in the USA in great numbers.

No comment can be made about it's legality or the legality of it's hybrids
except by CITES.

If you try to import or export it, you will still run into trouble if you
don't manage to get the correct paperwork from CITES AND you CAN'T get
CITES permission UNLESS Vietnam allows the plant to leave it's borders with
a USA destination on the paperwork. As of September 1 2006, this has not
happened yet.

So Paph vietnamensis is a weird one with regard to CITES....you can't
legally import it or it's hybrids into the USA or export it or its hybrids
out of USA, but they are here and being sold openly.


V_coerulea" wrote in message
.. .


I heard AnTec was providing a copy of the Cites clearance papers with
the plants that were sold. Personally - I would want a copy for at
least the first couple of years. (say 5 yrs). Then I think there
will be enough plants around - including the illegal ones that there
will be a much lower risk.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

Sue, I too have purchased flasks of vietnamense and HoChiMinh from Antec.
They provide a sales receipt listing date and species purchased but no
other documentation. They told me at the time that that was all that was
necessary since they were the only ones who could legally propagate these.
And all I had to do when I sell any is to provide a receipt with my name
and address, the buyer's name and adress along with my original purchase
info from Antec so there is a created papertrail on one page. It's no real
problem to keep track of and print a form from the computer. I encourage
buyers to scan a working copy into their computer and file the original
away with important papers - you know, the ones everyone keeps but will
probably never need.
Gary