Very interesting post Al!
Joanna

"Al" wrote in message
...
I wanted to add a bit more (okay a lot more) info to this thread. It
started because a potential customer wrote to ask me if I could prove my
plants were legal incase he ever wanted to show them. Which made me
question if the AOS has a policy of asking for proof. I already know from
CITES that, if I am not the importer of the plant, all I CAN offer when I
sell a plant is a receipt; which can not address the issue of proof for
many reasons.

Amway:

1.) As far as I am able to determine at this point in time, the AOS does
not officially police the transfer of plants from vendor to vendor or from
vendor to customer/exhibitor.The AOS does not have any policy in place
that requires exhibitors to show proof of legality when they show a plant.
This means there is no across the board guideline for show chairs or
judges to follow. Some show chairs and judging locations may have
guidelines of their own. So if you sit a plant in front of them and they
question you, ask to see those guidelines. All you should need, (unless
you are the original importer) is a receipt; which, BTW, is NOT proof a
plant is legally obtained because CITES will already know you have it if
you are the original importer named on it and if you are not it means
nothing if you present it with your plant.

Sometimes the CITES import document is offered when newly legal plants are
sold within this country, but it is not proof the plants you are buying
are legally imported and is kind of scary if you get it and the vendor you
got it from is NOT named on it at all; meaning they are not the original
importer. (I have one of these for a flask of Paph gigantefolium. It
means nothing. I do have the receipt from the vendor. However, neither
document is proof my flask comes from plants that were legally imported.)

2.) CITES does not police the transfer of plants from vendor to vendor
once a plant crosses the border into the USA. A copy of the original
CITES document from the county of origin to the importer is not proof you
are buying plants legally obtained, even if the vendor you are buying them
from is the original importer.

3.) The is no law or official guideline from CITES to handle the transfer
of plants already in the country. If you are in the USA and are buying a
plant from a vendor in the USA and you have a question about its legal
status, contact CITES. If you buy it, obtain a receipt that has the
vendor's name and address on it as well as the name of the plant and the
date of sale. Keep it for your records. This, however, is NOT proof the
plant was legally imported.

4.) If you ever have a question about a plant's legal status in this
county, contact CITES. CITES is the only organization that can tell you
if it has ever granted permits for a particular species to enter this
country. Once it is here, it is not possible to track what happens to it.
Unless you are involved in the import/export of plants OR selling/
reselling them; you probably do not have to worry about having plants
confiscated. If you show a plant and a show chair or judge questions the
legality of it, they should accept your word that you bought it from a
vendor in this country (especially if you have a receipt) and IF they
still have questions they should contact CITES because ONLY CITES can tell
them if a species has ever been granted a CITES import document.

Once it is here they do NOT track it or it's offspring, so depending on
the time lapsed from the first CITES document, once might GUESS at a
plants legality, but only the CITES enforcement arm and a conviction of
smuggling can prove a plant in your possession is illegally obtained, so
if they turn your plant away at a judging or show exhibit, it is my
opinion that you should raise hell and use the word "lawyer" ; especially
if you have done your homework by contacting CITES and learned how long
ago the species in question was imported for the first time with legal
status.

5.) and if you have read this far, good for you.

According to Roddy Gobels from CITES, Paph vietnamensis has NEVER been
granted a permit to LEAVE Vietnam and enter the USA, so there can be no
CITES document anywhere in the paper trail for this species or it's
hybrids in the USA. However, plants that were imported ILLEGALLY were
intercepted by CITES and sent to one of the United States plant holding
facilities run by the US Botanical Gardens (USBG), By CITES treaty law
confiscated plants have to be offered back to the country of origin
(Vietnam in this case) BUT Vietnam declined and the plants stayed here in
the possession of the US government. The USBG can not sell them or give
them away, but they entered into an agreement with ANTEC labs to produce
seedlings and sell them in the USA in exchange for some of the seedlings
Antec produced.

This means that all "legal" plants of paph veitnamensis and it's hybrids
trace back to a receipt from Antec. There is no CITES import document to
ask for or receive and the USBG doesn't/didn't offer any official paper I
am aware of to ANTEC with their permission. Before I bought my plants
from Antec I asked Roddy Gobels from CITES (he is a member of my local
orchid society) about these plants and he told me CITES was aware of the
arrangement with Antec and the USBG. I have never been clear about how
this arrangement made these plants legal because the USBG is not allowed
to give away or sell plants, but CITES did not concern themselves with
these plants except to confirm that Vietnam declined to have them returned
when they were offered and that they were aware of the arrangement between
the USBG and Antec. This conversation took place early in 2003.

At this point, September 2006, several vietnamenis have been shown in the
USA. One has been awarded. (actually two have been awarded, the CBR and
the AM, but one was invalidated due to the timing of one award with the
other)

At several local show/sales, this plant has been available for sale in bud
by the tray full, so this plant is here in the USA in great numbers.

No comment can be made about it's legality or the legality of it's hybrids
except by CITES.

If you try to import or export it, you will still run into trouble if you
don't manage to get the correct paperwork from CITES AND you CAN'T get
CITES permission UNLESS Vietnam allows the plant to leave it's borders
with a USA destination on the paperwork. As of September 1 2006, this has
not happened yet.

So Paph vietnamensis is a weird one with regard to CITES....you can't
legally import it or it's hybrids into the USA or export it or its hybrids
out of USA, but they are here and being sold openly.


V_coerulea" wrote in message
.. .


I heard AnTec was providing a copy of the Cites clearance papers with
the plants that were sold. Personally - I would want a copy for at
least the first couple of years. (say 5 yrs). Then I think there
will be enough plants around - including the illegal ones that there
will be a much lower risk.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

Sue, I too have purchased flasks of vietnamense and HoChiMinh from Antec.
They provide a sales receipt listing date and species purchased but no
other documentation. They told me at the time that that was all that was
necessary since they were the only ones who could legally propagate
these. And all I had to do when I sell any is to provide a receipt with
my name and address, the buyer's name and adress along with my original
purchase info from Antec so there is a created papertrail on one page.
It's no real problem to keep track of and print a form from the computer.
I encourage buyers to scan a working copy into their computer and file
the original away with important papers - you know, the ones everyone
keeps but will probably never need.
Gary