Does the AOS have any official guidelines for show chairs and Judges to use
when a plant like Paph vietnamense (I know I keep spelling it wrong) or Ho
Chi Minh show up at shows or judging events? It seems like a good idea. I
send out a few emails to judges and people I know to be show chairs and got
lots of opinions but no direct answer as to written policy. One of them
said they would ask and post the reply on their judging website. But so
far, nothing. I am wondering if the customer who questioned me about my
ability to proof my plant were legal incase he ever wanted to show them was
just asking out of ignorance or had heard someplace that proof must be
provided when exhibiting certain plants.

I do believe the AOS will stay out of because it becomes kind a litigious
question and there really is no proof any exhibitor can offer that a plan
they show is legal.

Just because I am waving a CITIES import document with my name as the
importer and the species I am exhibiting listed on it too is NOT proof the
plant I am exhibiting was the plant mentioned in the document. The AOS
judges might decide it is and then later I get arrested, tried and convicted
on a smuggling charge that includes plants of this very species brought in
from a different route on or near the date of the CITES import document. I
think something like this has already happened although I am not sure of the
specifics. I have the name of a very famous Paph vendor/importer who had a
plant awarded and was later in trouble with the law for it. I do not know
the specifics so I leave out the name. The question now becomes for this
particular awarded plant, "What should AOS do with an award if a plant is
proven to be 'illegal'. They collect and record data on the plant and
exhibitor, and this is not breaking any law at all, so why ask for proof of
legality or even debate the question? The exhibitor is the one taking the
chance.

This is behind the potential customer's question: "Can I proof the plant I
am selling him is legally obtained so he can be secure in showing it. My
answer is "I can provide a written statement with the receipt that I got it
from Antec and sign my name on it." It is not proof, but it is all I can
offer. The proof occurs in court with a conviction or (whatever the
opposite of a conviction is).... A person who bought plants from me would
probably not ever be convicted of anything illegal and I am sure I would
not, but the proof happens in court. "Can the prosecutor prove I have ever
been involved in bringing plants into this county without the proper
permits." I think not.

I suppose my plants could be confiscated if they were deemed to be evidence
in a legal proceeding against me or somebody else.... I don't know and I
don't know if that has ever happened. I only know of confiscated plants
directly from the importer.... And I only know that from the internet.

Conversely, many judging locations operate in front of an audience. They
sit there and debate the merits of a plant as they decide to score it.
That's how my local judging station works. Observers, clerks, other
exhibitors, other judges are all witnesses as to what is being said. So I
show up with Paph vietnamensis and so does another exhibitor and we all sit
there and watch them apply whatever rules they have in determining if the
plant can be judged based on it being 'legally obtained". They turn me away
because my receipt is not proof but they decide to judge the other plant.
They have just called me a smuggler or liar in front of everyone and I know
a lawyer. I wonder if the judges are speaking for themselves and are
putting their own mortgages on the line with the opinion that my plant is
not legally obtained or (even better) that they are speaking as officials of
the AOS, a much richer organization. I do not know from whence their
authority to pronounce my plant 'legal" comes.

I do know that this has come up already also, one judge wrote me back
recently and said of a recently exhibited plant and exhibitor not in the
room...."It was said yesterday at judging "We don't want to challenge that".
Reason - We didn't want to question the exhibitor of doing something illegal
because of who he was. Personally, I think that if AOS questions one
person, then EVERYONE needs to be questioned." I don't know who said it. I
know who wrote to me and they shall remain nameless. :-)

I think the bottom lines here a

Keep your receipts and make sure they point with names and addresses to the
vendor. Receipts missing plant names, vendor names and dates are as bad as
nothing at all.
Buy from vendors you trust already inside the country.
Don't worry about proof unless you are the importer, you are most likely
save. CITES goes after import/export violators.
And, the AOS should probably make it clear to their judges to stay out of
any questions of 'legality" and that their only responsibility is to
cooperate with CITIES in any investigation---which is not the same thing as
acting on behalf of CITES. But I don't know what the AOS's policy is and I
think each location is left to their own rationale. I think that is a bad
idea.

A truly bottom line:

It just bugs me that I have had so many people walk away from purchasing
these two plants because what I can offer as proof does not sound like proof
to them. I actually remember cracking up on the phone with a potential
customer a year or so ago and saying, "If proof is a receipt from Antec,
then buy the plant from ANTEC." Bad move, I know because I can give them a
copy of a purchase receipt from Antec, proofless though it is, but I can do
it if it makes them happy. I probably also banged my head on the wall after
I hung up and blacked out because I still have lumps but remember nothing
concrete after making that statement.

And a final statement from me:

I said "STOP me before I type again." Ahhhhhh! I think you may require
physical restraints.

And mo
Does anybody really read any of this crap? :-)

"wendy7" wrote in message
news:iYgLg.14899$WK4.9951@fed1read06...
Oh my Al? Could I borrow your antennae plz?
No seriously, you should be writing books.
Just one question, as none of this info affects me, but shouldn't the
guidelines of each society be the same?

--
Cheers Wendy

No Spam Email Address Invalid

Al wrote:
Of all the mistakes I made in that post, the most glaring is probably
that I didn't make it clear: it was paph Ho Chi Minh that was being
sold by tray fulls at local shows, not the species vietnamensis.
Apparently Antec made and sold and gave a way an awful lot of them...

...and A Paph. vietnamense was shown by Piping Creek at an AOS
judging 3 months before the one at the Paph. Forum in Feb 2006 was
shown by USBG. This invalidated the CHM for the one awarded at the
Paph Forum. I was mistaken that an AM has been awarded to Paph
vietnamense.
I was mistaken about a lot of things....However, I was not mistaken
that there is no proof a vendor inside the USA can offer at the time
of sale that his/her plants were legally obtained or descended from
legally obtained stock...no matter how many pieces of paper he/she
can offer to staple to your receipt. The original CITES import
document stapled to a receipt can only mean that at some point in the
past the species (not necessarily the plant you are buying) was
imported legally (and not necessarily by the person with the stapler.

If CITES enforcement arm is going to come knocking on your door
asking for proof and they make a legal charge that the plants you own
are not legal, you are probably a plant importer and/or vendor and
you have done something to draw their attention. It is very unlikely
that they will show up as a result of a purchase from a vendor
already inside this country and nobody else should be questioning the
legality of plants you own or buy inside this country and that
includes the AOS as far as I can determine. At any rate, save your
receipts... :-) I don't why, it just seems wise.
And stop asking ME for proof if you want to buy one of my Ho Chi Minh
or vietnamesis. I'd be a fool to offer them for sale in public if I
didn't believe they were legal. And all I can offer you is a
receipt. I can staple something to it from Antec if it makes you
happy but this is NOT "proof". To be honest, all I can do is make
the written claim the plants came from antec on the receipt and sign
it. You can believe it or not. It is not "proof" but it is the best
any legitimate vendor can offer with regard to these two plants.

Stop me before I type again... Somebody help!


"Al" wrote in message
...

At several local show/sales, this plant has been available for sale
in bud by the tray full, so this plant is here in the USA in great
numbers.