"Chookie" wrote in message
...

Sounds like you missed out on the Permaculture Design Manual and (IIRC)
Permaculture One. The Earth User's Guide to Permaculture (by Rosemary
Morrow)
is quite accessible and better written than the others.

since that is one i did read (only the third title is now a mystery to me)
clearly i'm not missing much if i never worry about the others ;-)

Permaculture is agriculture for engineers.

AHH. i think in one sentence, you have got to the bottom of the problem!

It looks at ways of saving energy
rather than money. For example, my chooks are at present living under my
lemon tree. They have removed the grass that was competing with the tree
roots, spread mulch, and added fertiliser to the area. There are other
ways
to achieve the same results, but this is an energy-efficient one.

The idea is to consider inputs and outputs and see how you can make things
work for you with a minimum amount of effort.

it's interesting to me that you got this from the books. perhaps you read
better books by people who came later. perhaps you read better than i do.
"minimum amount of effort" did not appear to be anyone's aim in anything i
read. something like "fiddle with absolutely everything according to our
model and leave nothing that was there prior, standing, plant loads of beech
trees, and i certainly hope your block is sloped, young lady!!" is all i got
from them. :-)

Soil characteristics are
definitely an input. I think they are covered in PDM.

In my example, my chooks need as inputs: a run to scratch in, green stuff
to
eat, and shade. They produce scratched-up ground, eggs, and poo. The
lemon
tree needs: the grass removed from its roots, nitrogenous fertiliser, and
water. It provides: lemons and shade. (This list is not exhaustive, of
course.) Therefore I arrange matters so that the chooks and lemon tree
provide some of each other's needs *without my further intervention*.
THAT is
"control".

no it's not, it's perfectly sensible :-)

what would you make of a statement declaring one should not have a property
bigger than a couple of acres, because you would not be able to CONTROL it?
(i freely admit the ordinary person _can't_ really "control" more than a few
hectares - i just can't see what the problem is with that.)

The rest is broad conclusions and sample technique.

what, stuff he thought up that nobody's ever tried?

it's probably just not, in & of itself, my thing, & that's probably why i've
got such an attitude about it. i suspect that the perfectly sensible
elements have become mainstream(ish) and my own attitude, of working with
what is already here, rather than tearing it all down & re-inventing the
wheel, just won't go with 70s style permiculture.

HTH,

it does, but notwithstanding that, my land is sloped all over. big bill
would wet himself with joy!! my windbreaks would bring tears to his eyes!!!
ok i'll stop now, sorry....
:-)
kylie