In article ,
"0tterbot" wrote:

Permaculture is agriculture for engineers.

AHH. i think in one sentence, you have got to the bottom of the problem!

The idea is to consider inputs and outputs and see how you can make things
work for you with a minimum amount of effort.

it's interesting to me that you got this from the books. perhaps you read
better books by people who came later. perhaps you read better than i do.

I got that from PDM, on my first reading of it and with no understanding of
permaculture prior to that. Of course it doesn't actually SAY that, but if
you know any engineers, you recognise the mind-set instantly! The premise of
all engineering, AFAICS, is to create a system to deliver the required results
as efficiently as possible, and to prevent catastrophic failures.

The idea of broadacre wheat farming, where you drill your seed in, then wait a
few months before experiencing crop failure/success, is completely alien to
the engineering mind (it's efficient, but it does not prevent catastrophic
failure). The idea of continuous polyculture to spread risk would make much
more sense to them.

"minimum amount of effort" did not appear to be anyone's aim in anything i
read. something like "fiddle with absolutely everything according to our
model and leave nothing that was there prior, standing, plant loads of beech
trees, and i certainly hope your block is sloped, young lady!!" is all i got
from them. :-)

Sounds like the principles got a bit mixed up with technique there. Elevation
is handy simply because it enables you to use gravity, ie, free energy. THe
"fiddling" is where you get existing processes to work for you -- ie, they
would all have been examples.

This is starting to remind me of debates about Attachment Parenting in
misc.kids, where people say AP is a hard-line approach to parenting, instead
of seeing that it's a few principles (the first one being "understand your
child's needs") and a lot of suggested techniques.

Did you interpret "slashing" leguminous plants as "chopping them down",
perhaps?

http://www.tortuga.com/permacultura/...Principles.htm
gives a very succinct summary of the design principles of permaculture, in
which you will see the words "energy" and "system" appear frequently.

Soil characteristics are
definitely an input. I think they are covered in PDM.

In my example, my chooks need as inputs: a run to scratch in, green stuff
to
eat, and shade. They produce scratched-up ground, eggs, and poo. The
lemon
tree needs: the grass removed from its roots, nitrogenous fertiliser, and
water. It provides: lemons and shade. (This list is not exhaustive, of
course.) Therefore I arrange matters so that the chooks and lemon tree
provide some of each other's needs *without my further intervention*.
THAT is "control".

no it's not, it's perfectly sensible :-)

I think Linda Woodrow explains it best: in The Permaculture Home Garden, she
explains that we are best at working with our brains, so we should consider
design of the garden (following study of local conditions, principles of
gardening etc) as our primary work. We should leave the job of destroying
snails and spreading fertiliser to the poultry :-)

what would you make of a statement declaring one should not have a property
bigger than a couple of acres, because you would not be able to CONTROL it?
(i freely admit the ordinary person _can't_ really "control" more than a few
hectares - i just can't see what the problem is with that.)

Where was that? What was the context? I do think it would be hard to get a
continuous polyculture going on a bigger scale than that, so it would depend
on what was to be attempted.

The rest is broad conclusions and sample technique.

what, stuff he thought up that nobody's ever tried?

Well, planting beech trees for a timber crop that in the meantime feeds and
shades your pigs, who fertilise the trees and supply you with meat/income
until the trees can be harvested. That's an example of a guild.

it's probably just not, in & of itself, my thing, & that's probably why i've
got such an attitude about it.

If my comments have been helpful in changing your mind, Rosemary Morrow's book
has just come out in a second edition!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue