Kay Lancaster wrote:

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 01:29:30 -0600, sherwindu wrote:


Kay Lancaster wrote:

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 01:07:55 -0600, sherwindu wrote:
You missed the point. The resultant apple will have the genetic makeup of some

recessed genes, and will not resemble the original apple, no matter what. You

Please, please... pick up a good basic genetics book and do some reading.
"Recessed genes"? You think they're on holiday break?

I think you are the one that needs the textbooks. Read on ...

Better yet, a
good basic plant breeding text sounds like it needs to be on your list.

I am not pretending to be a biologist or a plant geneticist. However, I do know a
solid layman's idea of how apple trees propagate. The term recessive gene is not
my invention but is part of the laws of Mendelian inheritance created by Gregor
Mendel.
If you have a problem with that, take it up with him.

I have no problem with the notion of recessive genes, but you wrote
"recessed genes" and also seemed to have no real grasp of some of the
other issues of apple genetics.

Here we go with the old semantics attack. If you can't win an argument on substance,
attack someone on their use of language. You can hypothesize all you want about my
abilities, but I question yours, as well. I don't need to have to have a degree in
biology to know
that there are certain traits carried over in various generations of apples, as well as
other
living matter. Exactly what other issues of apple genetics are you referring to? Your
theories
about how easily apples can mutate into something desirable is way removed from reality.
I suggest you stick with your plums, where you may have some stronger arguments.

I think that in this case, one can learn more about apple growing by experiencing it first
hand, rather
than burying oneself in a lot of textbooks, especially those on genetics. However, I do
read
books, surf the net, and review articles to keep up with the latest information on apple
growing. I am not a research scientist or a genetic engineer trying to develop new
varieties
of apples.



Furthermore, recessive genes probably aren't at the heart of variation in
apples.

They certainly are when you try to reproduce an apple by planting it's seed.





There are some really interesting issues in apple genetics, including
ploidy levels, polygenic inheritance and a tendency to "bud sport".



In
fact, it's fairly common

It's so common that I have never seen one in my 20 years of growing apples,
visiting numerous orchards, or just talking to fellow apple growers.


to find an oddball branch on a grafted tree,

What you call oddball I have only observed in very small variations in size, color,
and taste of the apple. I am not familiar with any radically different apples
appearing
suddenly on just one branch.

It's pretty common. If it weren't so late in the season here, I could
probably find several branch sports on apples within a mile or so of my
house.

I don't believe you.





clearly tissue grown from the graft, but with different fruit characters
from most of the rest of the tree. Chimerism and mosaicism

U. of Minnesota describes mosaicism as: 'Mosaic variegated aneuploidy (MVA) is a rare
recessive condition'.

Mosaic variegated aneupoloidy is different from mosaicism. An organism
exhibiting mosaicism has patches of cells with a different genome than other
patches of cells. Mosaic Variegated Aneuplody Syndrome is a rare genetic
disorder of humans, causing mitotic non-disjunction of cells, leading
to groups of aneuploid cells (cells with the wrong numbers of chromosomes.)
If this is the page you looked at:
http://www.cancer.umn.edu/research/p...c/c3dec04.html
it ain't about apples.

No, I didn't look at that page.



We are not talking here about genetic engineering! This is simply about the natural
genetic effects of planting an apple seed. This kid planting an apple seed is not
going to take it to his laboratory to do high tech genetic engineering!

Who said he or she was?

You are the one that went off on a tangent of genetic engineering, not me. I simply
stated
that you cannot expect an apple planted from seed to have the basic characteristics of
the parent apple it came from. Do you still want to dispute that!

In talking with a fellow apple grower today, he told me that he had heard from several
sources
that the odds of getting a decent apple from a planted seed was about 1 in 10,000. Now if

you are talking Prunus ( peaches, plums, apricots ), this is not the case, as those plants
are
better genetically capable of passing on their traits through their seeds.

Find another strawman. I'm done.

I certainly hope so. I'm getting tired of trying to put certain ideas people have about
growing
apples into the proper perspective. If you are an academic or genetic expert, you
shouldn't push
your credentials in people's faces, especially when you mislead them about the real world.

Sherwin D.



Kay