"pearl" wrote in message

I didn't say that you profited from meat production in China.

and now explain why more chinese eating meat, many getting a decent
diet
for
the first time makes them a wealthy elite

".. diseases of affluence are found in the more densely populated
rural areas nearer the seacoast where industrial activity and literacy
rates are higher ..."

don't tell me, tell the Chinese,

You asked me why eating meat makes them a wealthy elite. Clearly
those in wealthier, more industrial counties can afford to buy meat.

yep and the Chinese are now becoming one of the wealthier more
industrialised countries and can afford to buy meat, and indeed they are
buying meat, and very happy about it they are as well.

(They can't feed the animals many times more calories in the form
of grain/land/energy/etc and then sell meat at a fraction of the cost.)

Your industry is subsidised. Your 'product' is subsidised too.
The true cost is paid by animals, the environment, and people.

yes, our industry is subsidised which allows the urban population to buy
food at below the true cost of production. The biggest environmental damage
agriculture does is support urban populations whose stinking cities fester
across the land



they have tried the diseases of poverty and weren't happy with them, so
they
have obviously decided to give the others a go

'The decline in infectious and communicable diseases follows an
increase in, and more equitable distribution of, economic resources.

exactly, and the Chinese aren't worried about it, having tried all the
diseases of poverty they are going to try the diseases of affluence, and
leave the diseases of poverty to those whose countries cannot produce enough
to eat, like for example, the UK

exactly
All those biofuel plants will produce all sorts of byproducts that make
excellent animal food. I suppose we could turn maize gluten into kibble
for
vegetarians, but cattle love it.

Why are those Chinese planners worried then, if that's the case?

Because they might not be able to offer enough meat for a population
demanding it


Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who
cannot
be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line to
the
Latin American groups and moan at them

You buy their produce.

No, actually no, not in the last twelve months.

You've quit raising livestock? Go look at a bag of concentrate.

don't lecture me on cattle feed pearl. I don't buy concentrates, I buy
straights, I know the country of origin of each ingredient.


Sadly for you, the meat-eating 'wealthy elite' now includes the
massive
majority of the people in these countries, and they are going to have
their
meat and you are the one who is going to have to pay more for your
food.
They now have three choices
They can eat meat
They can convert grain to fuel
they can sell it to you at an increasingly expensive price

"While soybean exports boomed in Brazil to feed Japanese
and European livestock - hunger spread from one-third to
two-thirds of the population"...."Where the majority of people
have been made too poor to buy the food grown on their own
country's soil, those who control productive resources will, not
surprisingly, orient their production to more lucrative markets
abroad."

boy you are out of touch

No, webster, you are.

I'm not the one trying to change Chinese and Brazilian food policy by
posting to a UK group, now that is seriously out of touch


work it out on your fingers
The Argentinians stopped exporting beef in 2006 to allow the price at
home
to fall to ensure Argentinians had plenty of beef

SOME Argentinians.

the vast majority, Argentina has a left of centre government


'The new poor

Despite being considered the breadbasket of South America, recent
national headlines have highlighted the plight of more than 200,000
children suffering from severe malnutrition in the impoverished
province of Tucumán in the north. Yet, Argentina is the world's
fifth largest exporter of agricultural products, including soybeans
and lemons,

easy done, we'll ban the import of argentinan soya


Many Argentineans feel that the country has sunk as low as it can
go with little prospect of recovery in the near future. 90% of
Argentina's population live in and around urban areas and the poorest,
a growing number of 'cartoneros', struggle to make a living. Their only
option is to scavenge through the rubbish to sort out recyclable waste,
as even this has increased in value since the collapse of the peso.
..'
http://www.new-agri.co.uk/03-1/countryp.html

get up to date pearl, that is 2003 data, the world is moving on faster than
you can find web sites



As for Brazilians, their growth forecasts are that as their country
develops
the amount of meat eaten by the local population will increase as they
get
wealthier

They will get wealthier because Brazil is self sufficient in food and
converting a lot of it into energy to reduce its dependence on imported
oil
They also are developing a pretty good manufacturing industry.
So their population is pretty well guaranteed enough to eat and enough
fuel
to shift the food.

'The developing world hasn't always been hungry. Early explorers
of the 16th and 17th centuries often returned amazed at the huge
amounts of food they saw there. In parts of Africa, for example,
people always had three harvests in storage and no-one went
hungry. The idea of buying and selling food was unheard of.

don't worry, they'll probably go back to it, which is a bit of a sod because
you are one of the people dependent on imported food

..
It is common for people to be thrown off the land, often going to
the towns where there is little other work. About 160,000 people
move from rural areas to cities every day (5). Many migrants are
forced to settle in shanty towns and squatter settlements.
..
The sad irony is that the world produces more than enough plant
food to meet the needs of all its six billion people. If people used
land to grow crops to feed themselves, rather than feeding crops
to animals, then there would be enough to provide everyone with
the average of 2360 Kcal (calories) needed for good health (7).

If everyone were to take 25 per cent of their calories from animal
protein then the planet could sustain only three billion people (8).
In simple, brutal terms, if we were all to imitate the average North
American diet, we would only be able to feed half the world's
population.
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

Bottom line, jim. There simply aren't adequate resources to
sustain your hideous nightmare. The destruction must stop.

not my nightmare kiddy, it is the real world, it is what is happening out
there. They don';t give a damn about you because they are going to get
through it, because they have the food and the fuel.
You on the other hand are the one who is going to have to find a really
convincing reason for them to sell you food. What have you got to offer that
they cannot produce at home



On the other hand, you have to explain exactly what you have to offer
that
means the Brazilians will sell food to you.

Why should they worry about you and your need for soya?

All these interesting imported protein sources beloved of many
vegetarians
are going to become awfully expensive

So it is about time people woke up to the changing world and decided what
they are going to do about it.

The Brazilians are under no obligation to reduce their standard of living
for the privilege of selling us food. What have you got to sell them in
exchange?

It is YOUR need for soya that is driving people off land and
destroying rainforest, farmer jim. Profit before anything else.

OK so what protein sources do you eat.

remember that I know what is being fed to my cattle and there is no soya. At
the moment they are all eating byproducts from food production that people
cannot eat.

So what protein sources do you eat

and how are you going to convince people to sell them to you

Jim Webster