"pearl" wrote in message
...


yep and the Chinese are now becoming one of the wealthier more
industrialised countries and can afford to buy meat, and indeed they are
buying meat, and very happy about it they are as well.

Some are, and they will pay the inevitable price.

no you will pay the price, because you are the one who will not be able to
buy food and fuel because they are using it


(They can't feed the animals many times more calories in the form
of grain/land/energy/etc and then sell meat at a fraction of the cost.)

Your industry is subsidised. Your 'product' is subsidised too.
The true cost is paid by animals, the environment, and people.

yes, our industry is subsidised which allows the urban population to buy
food at below the true cost of production. The biggest environmental
damage
agriculture does is support urban populations whose stinking cities
fester
across the land

Who ultimately pays for those subsidies? People crowded in urban areas
because of your stinking livestock farms festering across ~70% of the
land.
It is not only in "developing" countries where people have been forced off
land by greedy cattle barons who raze/d everything in their way for meat.

yep. let the people back on the land, it worked so well in Zimbabwe
Indeed let the government run the land. After all under Socialism the Russia
imported grain, it was desperate for it, now under private ownership Russia
and the Ukraine are major grain exporters.
Yep, let the greedy barons farm, at least they actually produce food


they have tried the diseases of poverty and weren't happy with them,
so
they
have obviously decided to give the others a go

'The decline in infectious and communicable diseases follows an
increase in, and more equitable distribution of, economic resources.

exactly, and the Chinese aren't worried about it, having tried all the
diseases of poverty they are going to try the diseases of affluence,

Where's all the extra arable land, pasture and grain to come from?

that is your problem, the Brazilians have plenty to feed and fuel
themselves, it is you that is going to go short. The chinese are worried,
but they do have a big GM programme and plans to build 48 nuclear power
stations which should cut their oil and coal use



and
leave the diseases of poverty to those whose countries cannot produce
enough
to eat, like for example, the UK

To eat meat, even though..

'Over 70 per cent of the land in the UK is used for agriculture, and
66 per cent of this is used as permanent pasture (1) while a high
proportion of the remainder is used to grow crops to feed livestock.

already discussed this earlier in the thread.
You cannot grow crops on land that has been converted into flood storage
because too many people live on the flood plain, you cannot grow crops on
land that washes away if you plough it because of the slope, you cannot grow
crops on the land in the north of scotland because the rock or bog is too
cloe to the surface.
remember they have said the UK, so they include the Scottish highlands and
the welsh mountains, look at a map and see how big an area that is

..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/planetonaplate.htm

exactly
All those biofuel plants will produce all sorts of byproducts that
make
excellent animal food. I suppose we could turn maize gluten into
kibble
for
vegetarians, but cattle love it.

Why are those Chinese planners worried then, if that's the case?

Because they might not be able to offer enough meat for a population
demanding it

Bingo.

yep. And the Chinese government is interested in what the Chinese population
wants, it doesn't give a damn what you want

Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who
cannot
be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line
to
the
Latin American groups and moan at them

You buy their produce.

No, actually no, not in the last twelve months.

You've quit raising livestock? Go look at a bag of concentrate.

don't lecture me on cattle feed pearl. I don't buy concentrates, I buy
straights, I know the country of origin of each ingredient.

Where's your soya meal from?

duh
don't feed soya


Sadly for you, the meat-eating 'wealthy elite' now includes the
massive
majority of the people in these countries, and they are going to
have
their
meat and you are the one who is going to have to pay more for your
food.
They now have three choices
They can eat meat
They can convert grain to fuel
they can sell it to you at an increasingly expensive price

"While soybean exports boomed in Brazil to feed Japanese
and European livestock - hunger spread from one-third to
two-thirds of the population"...."Where the majority of people
have been made too poor to buy the food grown on their own
country's soil, those who control productive resources will, not
surprisingly, orient their production to more lucrative markets
abroad."

boy you are out of touch

No, webster, you are.

I'm not the one trying to change Chinese and Brazilian food policy by
posting to a UK group, now that is seriously out of touch

Where do your subscribers import soya meal from?

anywhere that produces it cheap, but remember rape meal and maize gluten,
both food industry and biofuel byproducts are the important sources of
protein. Soya will be more for pigs and poultry.

work it out on your fingers
The Argentinians stopped exporting beef in 2006 to allow the price at
home
to fall to ensure Argentinians had plenty of beef

SOME Argentinians.

the vast majority, Argentina has a left of centre government

Support your claim of "the vast majority".

look at the election results



'The new poor

Despite being considered the breadbasket of South America, recent
national headlines have highlighted the plight of more than 200,000
children suffering from severe malnutrition in the impoverished
province of Tucumán in the north. Yet, Argentina is the world's
fifth largest exporter of agricultural products, including soybeans
and lemons,

easy done, we'll ban the import of argentinan soya

Brazil .. Argentina. Where is your soya meal imported from?

see above

Many Argentineans feel that the country has sunk as low as it can
go with little prospect of recovery in the near future. 90% of
Argentina's population live in and around urban areas and the poorest,
a growing number of 'cartoneros', struggle to make a living. Their only
option is to scavenge through the rubbish to sort out recyclable waste,
as even this has increased in value since the collapse of the peso.
..'
http://www.new-agri.co.uk/03-1/countryp.html

get up to date pearl, that is 2003 data, the world is moving on faster
than
you can find web sites

Update us.

already have


As for Brazilians, their growth forecasts are that as their country
develops
the amount of meat eaten by the local population will increase as they
get
wealthier

They will get wealthier because Brazil is self sufficient in food and
converting a lot of it into energy to reduce its dependence on
imported
oil
They also are developing a pretty good manufacturing industry.
So their population is pretty well guaranteed enough to eat and enough
fuel
to shift the food.

'The developing world hasn't always been hungry. Early explorers
of the 16th and 17th centuries often returned amazed at the huge
amounts of food they saw there. In parts of Africa, for example,
people always had three harvests in storage and no-one went
hungry. The idea of buying and selling food was unheard of.

don't worry, they'll probably go back to it, which is a bit of a sod
because
you are one of the people dependent on imported food

They can't go back to it, as their land is used to meet your demands.

tough isn't it
You don't fancy a sod busting life as a subsistance peasant and the world
cannot see a reason to sell you food.



not my nightmare kiddy, it is the real world, it is what is happening out
there. They don';t give a damn about you because they are going to get
through it, because they have the food and the fuel.

Many don't, kidder. Those poor you don't give a damn about
because you make money - as the nightmare for them goes on
in the real world - unlike your fantasy-land 'hamburgers for all'.




You on the other hand are the one who is going to have to find a really
convincing reason for them to sell you food. What have you got to offer
that
they cannot produce at home

They're selling you feed even though people are starving.
They do it for money. Just like you. All else be damned.

you still haven't grasped it have you.
Even if you plough everything in the UK that will plough, and to hell with
flooding and massive soil loss through erosian, there still isn't the land
to produce the food, even if we are entirely vegetarian. Remember you have
lost half the land to biofuel anyway
And you still haven't said why the Brazilians should take food out of their
peoples mouths to give it to you


On the other hand, you have to explain exactly what you have to offer
that
means the Brazilians will sell food to you.

Why should they worry about you and your need for soya?

All these interesting imported protein sources beloved of many
vegetarians
are going to become awfully expensive

So it is about time people woke up to the changing world and decided
what
they are going to do about it.

The Brazilians are under no obligation to reduce their standard of
living
for the privilege of selling us food. What have you got to sell them
in
exchange?

It is YOUR need for soya that is driving people off land and
destroying rainforest, farmer jim. Profit before anything else.

OK so what protein sources do you eat.

It is not feeding people that's a problem. It's feeding livestock.

You never will answer this question will you, what protein sources do you
eat


remember that I know what is being fed to my cattle and there is no soya.
At
the moment they are all eating byproducts from food production that
people
cannot eat.

BS.


sorry if it doesn't fit in with your bigotted preconceptions but beef cattle
do fine on grass silage, maize gluten and busicit meal, the last a
confectionary waste product


So what protein sources do you eat

and how are you going to convince people to sell them to you

two questions you seem unable to answer

Jim Webster