"pearl" wrote in message
...



Don't tell me, tell them, obviously they aren't bothered because
they
are the ones who are pushing up their meat intakes and loving it

Meat has and is being actively promoted in China. Fat is addictive..

don't need to actively promote, people have always wanted to eat more



you will pay the price, because you are the one who will not be
able to
buy food and fuel because they are using it

Assuming that "I" required food from China, which we don't,
what you are actually acknowledging here, is that an increase in
the consumption of meat in China would take away an essential
component of the world's human population's diet. Way to go!

As I said, you are having to compete with the Chinese on the world
food market, so what can you offer that the Chinese cannot?

You are competing with the Chinese on the world market to feed livestock.

so? At least I admit it and am not in denial
At least I admit what is in my diet

I'm merely pointing out that it isn't the Chinese problem, it is your
problem as you are the one living in the country without the land to feed
or
fuel itself

Nonsense.

OK, so produce the figures to show that the UK can produce food and fuel for
the current population



..
yep. let the people back on the land, it worked so well in Zimbabwe

'The biggest disaster to have hit Zimbabwe is the IMF/WORLD BANK
sponsored structural adjustment program critically implemented at the
beginning of 1990.

Yeah sure. And murdering farmers had no effect whatsoever

Shit happens when people are angry enough.

or greedy


Indeed let the government run the land. After all under Socialism the
Russia
imported grain, it was desperate for it, now under private ownership
Russia
and the Ukraine are major grain exporters.

'The IMF has helped foster a severe depression in Russia

Russia in the 1990s has witnessed a peacetime economic contraction
of unprecedented scale.

Except the Russians weren't producing the food before the 1990s and
now they are. Russia imported food ever since WW2 which has damn all to
do
with the IMF

Of course they were producing food -- for *themselves*.

no, that is what imports means, Russians weren't even producing food for
themselves



Yep, let the greedy barons farm, at least they actually produce food

'The often heard comment (one I once accepted as fact) that
"there are too many people in the world, and overpopulation is
the cause of hunger", can be compared to the same myth that
expounded sixteenth-century England and revived continuously
since.

And there's these millions of English peasants all demanding they
be
allowed to give up their nice jobs and houses in town and return to
subsistence agriculture,

No way

Do a survey. All those millions of English people in the urban slums
can't afford to pay the premium price of houses in the countryside.

that isn't what was said, where is evidence that these people want to give
up their jobs and go back to subsistance agriculture



they have tried the diseases of poverty and weren't happy with
them,
so
they
have obviously decided to give the others a go

'The decline in infectious and communicable diseases follows an
increase in, and more equitable distribution of, economic
resources.

exactly, and the Chinese aren't worried about it, having tried all
the
diseases of poverty they are going to try the diseases of
affluence,

Where's all the extra arable land, pasture and grain to come from?

that is your problem,

No. It is a question that you unsurprisingly cannot answer.

Oh I know the answer, we have to produce something that the
Brazilians etc need, and produce it better and cheaper than their other
customers

Non sequitur.

Or grovel to the Yanks, choice is yours really

Read the following carefully, then print it out and stick it up over
your computer; in time you may realise just how foolish you are.

'Can America feed China?

then if you have these figures why are you in denial. Why are you refusing
to admit that there isn't enough food to go round and that we are going to
be the ones who are short?


the Brazilians have plenty to feed and fuel
themselves, it is you that is going to go short.

Assuming that "I" required food from Brazil, which we don't,
what you are actually acknowledging here, is that an increase in
the consumption of meat in Brazil would take away an essential
component of the world's human population's diet. Way to go.

Don't tell me, tell them, they are the ones doing it and they
aren't
going to stop because you wring your hands at them.

What are they doing? Exporting soya for foreign livestock.

look at the vegetarian society page, soya is a recommended protein source
for vegetarians


The chinese are worried,
but they do have a big GM programme

A big GM programme, eh.

'Almost all Argentine soya is GE,

Almost all traded soya is GM


All this worry, misery, trouble and strife... _for what_??

Well?

well what, or were you about to tell us about your diet, a subject you seem
strangely coy about


and plans to build 48 nuclear power
stations which should cut their oil and coal use

Too bad.

Don't tell me, tell them, they are doing it.

I'm conversing with you here, right now. You should leave.

why, I'm enjoying you struggle to cope with the idea that actually, the
world doesn't owe you a living
How are you going to convince the rest of the world to feed you


I'm sure there are some other alternatives around too.

Don't tell me, tell them, Mind you, you'd have to convince the
Chinese government you know more about Chinese conditions that it does.

D'you think they might better than you at comprehending stuff?

so you have run out of arguements and descended to the level of insult,
never mind,


and
leave the diseases of poverty to those whose countries cannot
produce
enough
to eat, like for example, the UK

To eat meat, even though..

'Over 70 per cent of the land in the UK is used for agriculture, and
66 per cent of this is used as permanent pasture (1) while a high
proportion of the remainder is used to grow crops to feed livestock.

already discussed this earlier in the thread.
You cannot grow crops on land that has been converted into flood
storage
because too many people live on the flood plain, you cannot grow crops
on
land that washes away if you plough it because of the slope, you
cannot
grow
crops on the land in the north of scotland because the rock or bog is
too
cloe to the surface.
remember they have said the UK, so they include the Scottish highlands
and
the welsh mountains, look at a map and see how big an area that is

You cannot grow crops on 'pastureland' or on the land being used to
grow feed crops. Free up that land, and there's plenty to go around.

Sure pearl, grow wheat in the Lake district. Way to go as you so
quaintly say.

Table 1: Agricultural land uses in East Cumbria, 2004
Description Area (in hectares)
..
Wheat 4,5031
Total cereals 17,936
..


duhh East Cumbria and Kendal are not the Lake District,

Just ignoring the reality of what land is capable of just makes you look
silly

You've just been demoted from fool to a silly fool.

yawn, no arguments, just insult, your diet is letting you down


yep. And the Chinese government is interested in what the
Chinese
population
wants, it doesn't give a damn what you want

It's the same sad self-serving story as elsewhere.

Hurray, she's finally got it

I 'had it' from the very beginning. Go look.

then you hid it damned well
so how are you going to convince them to sell you food?


And exactly what are you going to produce to ensure you can buy
food?

There's nothing to stop people producing their own food,
except for your business festering across most of the land.

yawn,
people in the UK are so keen on manual labour that most farm workers come
from Eastern Europe, and before you rant about poverty wages, go to the
defra statistics pages and discover farm incomes


You've quit raising livestock? Go look at a bag of
concentrate.

don't lecture me on cattle feed pearl. I don't buy concentrates, I
buy
straights, I know the country of origin of each ingredient.

Where's your soya meal from?

duh
don't feed soya

I don't believe you.

Tough, sad for you but those of us feeding cattle aren't limited by
what vega or any other loony site says.

Bullseye. You buy what is readily available, regardless.

of course, because I'm not a hypocrite, I admit I make a living out of
producing and selling food
How do you make a living?


I'm not the one trying to change Chinese and Brazilian food policy
by
posting to a UK group, now that is seriously out of touch

Where do your subscribers import soya meal from?

anywhere that produces it cheap,

Two thirds of it comes from Brazil.

so what, I don't use soya, don't need to








but remember rape meal and maize gluten,
both food industry and biofuel byproducts are the important sources of
protein. Soya will be more for pigs and poultry.

Clearly not enough. 389,740 tonnes of soya for the dairy sector alone.


and if I produced milk this might be of relevence




Who said anything about poverty, I pointed out that the vast
majority
supported the government policy on food exports. Election results are
useful
indicators

The current chief of state and head of government is Néstor Kirchner.

'Menem and Kirchner have supported rightwing pro-capitalist policies
and offer nothing for the working class and poor in Argentina.

Kirchner supports more state intervention in the economy and a
more 'traditional' Peronist policy of radical populist nationalism,
which is why his support increased during the campaign, he is
not a friend of the working class. Menem, pioneered the IMF
privatisation programme in Argentina. His programme was of a
Thatcherite neo-liberal one which marked a break with the
traditional policies of previous Peronist governments. They had
implemented radical populist nationalist policies which included
state intervention.

Corrupt politicians

you found another sort?


so now find and paste an uptodate website which discusses the current issues
not history



What you forget is that they will actually be eating a higher
proportion themselves, rather than exporting it to the west, so there
will
be less problems.

So you say.

well you haven't produced any evidence to the contary


They have already started this, which is why they are cutting soya
exports so we go round in a circle

And livestock in the 'developed' world will eat what?

Grass as usual, which is the majority feed of most beef and dairy cattle,
all that rape meal and maize gluten produced as a result of biofuel, the
traditional food industry wastes like citrus pulp from juice production,
Plenty to go at


You don't fancy a sod busting life as a subsistence peasant and the
world
cannot see a reason to sell you food.

It is not *my* diet that requires massive amounts of crops.



Ah yes, exactly what is your diet

I already told you, blame shifter.

assume I forgot, let us have some details


not my nightmare kiddy, it is the real world, it is what is
happening
out
there. They don';t give a damn about you because they are going to
get
through it, because they have the food and the fuel.
.

Ipse dixit and nonsense. You need to do a course in sustainable
farming.



Duhh

Sustainable farming includes crop rotations and not ploughing land that
erodes

Very good.


which means grass and livestock grazing it


Remember you have
lost half the land to biofuel anyway

Support that claim with evidence.



"Road transport in the UK consumes 37.5m tonnes of petroleum products a
year. The most productive oil crop that can be grown in this country is
rape. The average yield is 3-3.5 tonnes per hectare. One tonne of
rapeseed
produces 415kg of biodiesel. So every hectare of arable land could
provide
1.45 tonnes of transport fuel. To run our cars and busses and lorries on
biodiesel, in other words, would require 25.9m hectares. There are 5.7m
in
the UK. Even the EU's more modest target of 20% by 2020 would consume
almost
all our cropland".
George Monbiot, The Guardian, 2004

That doesn't provide support for your above claim.

duhh
work out the numbers pearl, work out the numbers, do the sums



And you still haven't said why the Brazilians should take food out of
their
peoples mouths to give it to you

They absolutely shouldn't, but that's for you meat eaters to answer.





And of course we note that pearl refuses to answer questions on her diet

I have and you've snipped it. That makes you a silly foolish liar, jim.

well I cannot find it, so could you repeat it please

all I can find is
It is not *my* diet that requires massive amounts of crops.

so as the world awaits, what is your diet,in rather more detail than 'vegan'
or 'vegetarian'

Jim Webster