"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...
"George.com" wrote in message
"0tterbot" wrote in message

my only real comment would be: "don't get me started". :-)

on a positive note, many people are waking up to better ways to do
things
here, and it's a learning process that i believe is almost at critical
mass,
but essentially are hindered by a few things (see jonno's post) but
mainly
our godforsaken dickhead gobshite ****knuckle federal govt, who have
now
decided it's a top idea to drain wetlands so that people who already
waste
water can waste even more of it. i could just scream (in fact,
sometimes
i
do!)
kylie

sorry, I am going to get you started as I am going to enlarge the issue
a
little. The way I see it, there is a very real potential the human race
(as
we currently enjoy ourselves) is phuqed.

Yep. Only a matter of time.........

What makes me think that? Arguably
the current methods and patterns of production and consumption we
'enjoy'
are unsustainable from an environmental perspective.

Yep. Only a matter of time before we collapse under the ecological
threats
that surround us.

This writer Diamond list 12 major (global) environmental problems: loss
of
natural habitat; loss of wild food sources including seafood; loss of
bio-diversity; loss of soil and soil nutrition; limits on major energy
sources; limits on freshwater availability (as well as water
degredation);
finite amounts of usuable sunlight; toxic chemicals; introduced pest
species; human produced gases deterimental to the atmosphere; polulation
growth; rising standards of living amongst the burgeoning population and
the
strains placed on the earths resources.

Even if we can argue that the current style of life amongst the
developed
world is sustainable, and debatable point, the strain will only
increase.
In
the last 15-20 years several nations have reached first
world/developed/western living standards - Malaysia/Taiwan/South
Korea/Hong
Kong/Singapore & (apparently) Mauritius. These countries have added
around
125 million people to 'our' production/consumption habits. Several
nations
in Eastern Europe are starting to accelerate toward first world income
levels, China is rapidly adding people to that class and India slightly
less
so. Then we have the likes of Brazil and Russia, even Thailand, who have
aimed that way. If China alone realises its goals of first world living
standards the impact on the world of production & consumption patterns
will
double what it is now. IE any problems now left unsolved will double
with
China alone reaching our living standards. Never mind the other large
populace countries.

Likely the problems of development (along first world
production/consumption
patterns) will grow rapidly for China (if not addressed swiftly and
successfully). The problems won't just be Chinas alone. If problems grow
rapidly, even exponentially, public opinion and preparedness to find
solutions/change the way we live will need to adjust just as rapidly. Am
I
confident that will occur? Not at present, not at the moment. I look
around
and despair at some of the everyday ways people live, I am included in
that
of course.

If we are currently rooting the earth beyond its ability to cope long
term,
and I tend in the favour of we are, then any further increase in people
living like we do will further root the earth. Things are happening so
rapidly in the likes of China and India, the consequential enviro
impacts
growing so rapidly, that some solutions to enviromental problems will
need
to be as equally rapid and the populations acceptance of this will also
need
to be as rapid. I see the genesis of awareness and movement but no major
'enlightenment'. The dickheads (or choose stronger terms as necessary)
who
simply say the 'freemarket' or 'technology' will take care of things,
allowing them to merrily go on as usual, are to my mind f wits.

A simple way of course would be for developed nations to ensure the 3rd
world remains 3rd world and therefore never develops our lifestyle
habits.
War, terrorism, genocide, mass migration of peoples is possible as a
result
of this. I am cynical, there may be hope for society yet however if it
comes
time to bite some hard bullets I just can't see the preparedness at
present
to do so.

If you want an example of some of this go and visit Cuba. Look at their
economy/society in the 1980s, the 1990s and today.

Can't argue with any of that, but what has happened in Cuba? I thought
that
they had gone backwards economically and socially since the 50s?

roftl, no, not really. Maybe in some respects they have not advanced a whole
lot since the 1950s however it is a different kettle of fish. I was there
recently for 3 weeks (a fascinating place, a real 'experience', not really a
'holiday'. Worth a visit, just be aware of what you are going to). The 1980s
was, according to some Cubans, a 'golden age' of abundance and prosperity
with large subsidies from the Soviet Union and favourable terms of trade.
They exported sugar, tobacco, coffee etc at inflated prices and bought
things like Bulgarian sauerkraut. That all came to an end when the USSR fell
apart. The Cuban 'good times' were premised, imho, on a false economy of
living beyond what the Soviets could sustainably provide. Arguably a little
like we have now.

With the soviet demise Cubas economy, living standards, imports/exports etc
all took a big tumble. So did availability of things like food, machinery,
oil, agricultural equipment etc etc. The country went through the "Special
Period", ostensibly massive rationing, austerity programmes and national
reorganisation of agriculture, transport and such like. Peoples calorie
intake decline by 1/3, from around 3000 (I think) calories a day to 2000
calories. Due to various measures people did not starve, neither did they
get rich and fat however. The country made do and got by. 3 national phrases
are conseguir (to get, manage), resolver (work out, resolve) and "it is
difficult". The country made it through a potential disaster period through
various collective actions, fairly massive change forced on them by the
state and innovation.

Even 10 years later the results of the "Special Period" are there to see.
Don't drink the local water, cope with the sewer smells, try and find a
bright new sparkling building, watch peopel queue for rations etc etc. A
degree of that is to do with the communist system Cuba operates under, some
is to do with the (lack of) relations with the US and trade embargos, some
of it is to do with Cuba being a poor country.

Put that aside and it serves as a little microcosm of what severe
environmental degredation, or large scale economic collapse, or the 2
combined may do to western economies. The Cuban situation was a little
artifical (though reality for the Cuban people) in as much as the western
world enjoyed relative prosperity (except for those the freemarket reforms
left behind) whilst Cuba suffered the collapse of its international support
network. That said, it provided an example of what our future could be
(though the future is open to human agency) and how one country coped. For
that reason alone Cuba is worth a visit, though you will burn some fossil
fuel getting there.

rob