In article ,
"George.com" wrote:

"James" wrote in message
"George.com"
Billy Rose wrote:
Frank wrote:

injudicious snip

OTOH Uneducated farmers in China have for centuries been able to feed
her large population using organic methods of night soil and the sweat
of their brows.

Also the study does not address cost of production. Maybe some in the
developed countries can afford to pay 3 or 4 times to eat organic.
Sooner of later there just won't be enough cheap labor to replace
what's done with chemicals, g.m. crops, and modern farming. US would
probably have to import more Mexicans than there are in Mexico to tend
the farms if they were all organic. Organic farms in the west survive
today because there're enough snobs willing to pay for organic. How
would they fare if they had to sell they produce at prices that an
average African can afford?

for subsistence level/small holding african/asian/american farmers I
imagine
organic principals applied to farming could easily see them right. That
is a
slightly different tack than you are taking however there is ample
evidence
on the net to show organic methods of farming does fine for small
holding in
developing countries. On a massive scale, organic farming has gone a
long
way in Cuba toward feeding the population. Not the whole way mind, the
country still imports much of its food, but a long way. That said, the
country was facing starvation when the soviets left and going organic
was
the most viable option when soviet petroleum & agri chemicals also left.
The
national food structure set up on organic lines does make up a good bulk
of
local requirements.
It's one thing to have evidence that organic methods of farming can
work but another thing for some self appointed know it alls like Bill
and Charlie to suggest that people who disagree with them are
automatically unread. Those 2 argue as if they have seen one article
and are automatically organic experts.

not exactly my point either. Point was there is evidence to show organic
techniques can benefit small holders in developing countries. Maybe not get
them first world incomes but at least feed them and their families and have
surplus left over to make a reasonable income (or even a good income) by
local standards or those of their peers. Their lifestyle may not
dramatically change, and even that statement is filled with subjectiveness
and guesswork, as they still remain substantially smallish farmers but do
appear to have gotten ahead in some respects. The experience of Cuba shows a
substantial contribution to a nations food requirements can be met
organically, there is even room for improvement in the system by the looks
of it. I am not stating this proves anything conclusively, mere that organic
principals can have a significant impact in certain times & places.

A couple of articles I have come across that illustrate certain points

Kenyan organic farmers who export fruit to developed markets. A Mr Kimani
had put his children through school and university on the profits of 3
hectares (there is the issues however of air freighting produce, that is
another argument mind)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/s...451695&ref=rss

Urban agriculture in Habana, Cuba. Not perfect by a long way and
productivity improvements can be made. Yet a significant achievement all the
same.
http://www.idrc.ca/en/ev-85409-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html
http://www.idrc.ca/en/ev-31574-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html
Good articles George, thank you.

My first reaction is that like the school system, people are trying to
fix everything via one approach, in this case, the designation "organic".
It also makes me wonder if the government really has any role beyond
requiring product information on food. If a local farmers group wants to
attach an easy to identify sticker that addresses several qualities of
the product, that would seem reasonable. I would also like the country
of origin displayed, especially after these product problems with China.
OTOH I would be favorably inclined toward beef from Argentina. At this
stage, I would just like the information so that I can make my own
decisions. Wrinkles in the logic, like tulips from Kenya being more
eco-friendly than those from Belgium is important but at this point I
don't see a need for regulatory in-put beyond information. When I think
of organic, my core concerns are "body burden"
http://www.oztoxics.org/cmwg/body%20burden/load.html , and non-polluting
and sustainable agriculture,
http://www.pcarrd.dost.gov.ph/phil-o...-Intensive%20H
ome%20gardening.pdf , that they reduce petroleum in-puts is a wonderful
bonus.

It isn't just the Central African Farmer who is on the cusp of
bankruptcy. The same can be said for the majority of American farmers as
well http://farm.ewg.org/farm/whatstheplan.php .

As usual, we are being gamed by Washington and their corporate masters.
This ain't gonna change until we have "public campaign financing". In
the mean time it is "we" the sheep who are being farmed, sheared, and
slaughtered.
--
Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/