Puce, I'm a little unsure how to respond to you, but I'll give it a go.

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 04:49:24 -0700
La Puce wrote:

On 27 Jul, 07:58, Emery Davis wrote:
This refers to the addition of sulfites as stabilizers to the wine, not
the use of Bdx mix in the vineyard.
It is common practice to use Bdx mix in organic grape growing. I do not
know the status in biodynamic vineyards, where it may indeed be
proscribed. (There are now more than a few biodynamic wines, using the
farming methods promulgated by Austrian philosopher Rudolf Steiner.)

I had always thought that 'sans souffre' was equivalent to 'vin
naturel', like no added sugar, no bx mix etc. throughout the whole
process from growing to bottleing. It is interesting to see that you

"sans souffre" means exactly what it says: no sulfites added. I have
explained why almost no wine is made this way, and why it is unlikely
you are drinking any.

Quoting from the Guide Hachette on vinifications: "[tout] est envoyé
dans la cuve de fermentation, après légère addition d'anhydride sulfureux
pour assurer une protection contre les oxydations et les contaminations
microbiennes."

If this stage is omitted and the wine not aged in sulphur treated barrels,
the wine may be said to be "sans souffre."

The only time I know of 'vin naturel' being employed is in the context
of a Vin Doux Naturel (VDN). One might say a VDN is anything but
natural as the fermentation is stopped (with a high residual sugar content)
by the addition of neutral spirits.

mention Rudolf Steiner, as if we could almost write Rudold Steiner
BC ;o) These practices have been used for centuries. It is a very
demanding process, labour intencive and results in lower yields, but
it is for the locals consumption. It is, in Cahors for example, the
local wine as it has always been done - nothing has changed there and
they are not in any hurry to ask for any 'labels'. They couldn't care
less to get this so their wine can be sold in the UK.


Of course farmer/winemakers in Cahors want to sell to the UK market.
It's how they make their living. Some have succeeded: Triguidina and
la Cédre now go for a lot of money world wide. But many Cahors producers
are struggling to make ends meet, at the same time they are making
wonderful wine.

They use modern techniques as everywhere. The cuves are usually
temperature controlled stainless. Although oak barrels were not
traditionally used, to please the palate of American critic Robert Parker,
many are experimenting with them. In the face of increased competition
from Oz and South America, a good review in the Anglo-Saxon press can
make the difference between staying in business or closing shop.

I know many wine people in the area, and I'll take the time to recommend
wonderfully silky and full reds from Dom Gravalous and Ch. les Ifs, either
one under 3 quid a bottle 'depart cave.'

So, please, let's respect these farmers who are having a very very difficult
time of it right now, by not romanticizing their situation overly.

On the subject of Steiner, biodynamicism does not reduce yields. Triage
reduces yields. You can have high yields with biodynamic methods. And,
Steiner may have been half nutty, but he was original. Although some methods
are adapted, some are certainly all his own.

Bordeaux however has so many different grapes now, it is quite
difficult to 'label', literally!

Natural wines, 'vins naturels', or 'organic wines', have always been
available in France. No 'souffre', no 'yeast', 'no more sugar'. These
are the wines that we call 'organic'. Isn't it?


No, we don't. We are allowed to call a wine organic so long as it is
made from organically grown grapes. That's all. After it arrives in
the cellar we can manipulate it any old way we want.

It may be silly, but that's the law.

The "no more sugar" only works in the warmer regions, as well. And
here it is common to add tartaric acid to fix the balance. (I.e. in Bordeaux
they add sugar. In California and Oz, they add acid).

As for "no souffre" you will have to understand that there is virtually
no such thing. I have explained why.

Yeast is another issue. There are many winemakers that are able to
use indigenous yeasts. But even these had to come from somewhere.
(When you start making wine somewhere for the first time, there is usually
no yeast in the brand new cellar walls and ceilings). Over time they mutate
to give a wine it's typicity, that some would argue are a part of the "terroir."
But originally they were purchased. When a very large concern makes
like a "Diamond Label" they want it to be the same year in and year out,
so they use a yeast strain that reliably produces a recognizable flavour
profile, immune to the variation of natural or wild yeast.

According to the law you can add tons of sulphur, truckloads of chemically
produced beet sugar, palettes of tartaric acid, ground up oak chips in paper
"tea bags" and still call the wine organic, so long as the grapes are organically
grown.

In fact there is in practice no such thing as "vin bio" because there is no
existing certification as to the use of indigenous yeasts, etc. What is
generally recognized is "vin issu de la culture biologique." This is a
meaningful label as farming practices can be certified organic. However
even this can be misleading. When the wine is chaptalized, as is more
common than admitted in the Bordelais, what is the source of the sugar?

)) Indeed! But the sugar in the grapes are sufficient for 'vin
naturel'. And why is this 'labelling' so important? There are hundreds
upon hundreds of wine growers not 'chaptalizing', nor using souffre
etc. and who couldn't care less about the commercial attitude of

You are mistaken about "using souffre", there are only a handful
of winemakers experimenting with this.

Winemakers in Bordeaux only chaptalize when necessary, as it will
be this year. Otherwise the wine will not reach the 12 degrees required
to achieve AOC status.

The reason labelling is important is that as a consumer, it gives you
a way to know what you're being sold. I can know which grape varieties
are permitted in AOC Bordeaux Superieur, whether chaptalization is authorized,
what maximum yield is allowed, all of this lets me know something about
what I'm about to purchase.

On topic, I once had a respected "organic" grower (before the bio label was
enforced in France) tell me glyphosate was OK to use because it was a
"synthetic plant hormone." Now, I know if something is labelled "bio" in the
store, that glyphosate was not used in production. Thus, the label is of
some worth to me.

Along the same lines, glyphosate is very heavily used in the wine industry,
in France as elsewhere. (All your little Cahors producers use it, of that you
may be sure. Glyphosate is very cheap if you're a farmer in France...) If
I buy a "vin issu de la culture biologique" I am certain that no glyphosate
was used in the farming of the grapes. If I buy a wine labelled "vin naturel"
I have no such assurance.

others. This mass 'commercial' attitude to labelling is so confusing.
In Napoli I bought some Grappa. There's no mention of labels, organic
etc. I find the UK getting a little bit 'label' mad to the point of
complete confusion.


I hope you enjoyed the grappa. I have some very nice Marc de Chateauneuf
du Pape from Dom. Mont Redon, next glass I will tip my hat in your direction.

-E
--
Emery Davis
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