"D. Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...
Alright yard man, tell us, what would you do with a tract where bark
beetles had destroyed the stand? Other than dissect the trees for what
ever use you would have for cutting up thousands of trees killed by the
beetles? Just let it stand to rot at its own pace. completely ignoring
the right of a land owner to restore his land to production, other than
brush?

You are an ignorant, uneducated fool. You pimp Shigo's work and use
others work as your own, seems you ignore the fact that some of us are
educated in forest management, and not in ridiculous claims on
"dissection", Shigo meters, and the rest of which you have not the
slightest clue.

Give up your attorney's name, you need to be addressed in court. It is
ignorant fools such as yourself that combine lack of education with false
environmental doctrine that has been disproved for decades and has led to
the decline of private lands..

You need to spend more time across the street in the county hospital.

Tornado's And Salvaging 2 of 16

Note: the Silviculture mentioned with restoration - I will use the
definition for salvaging from a website from a recognized consulting
forester in Texas (Don Staples), which I would assume is a forestry industry
standard. "Salvage and restoration. There comes a time when nature just
does not cooperate with the best of management efforts. At that time you may
have to salvage whats left, and start anew. Salvage is a very different
sales effort for forest products. Usually, the sales material is damaged,
dead, or dying. Finding a market for this material can be tricky, and
incomes low. But, best to move the material, get it out of the way for
future work. Take what income you can from the salvage, and set it aside for
planting the site."

I accept the definition, however, I disagree that you can plant a forest as
well as the statement that you may have to remove what is left, which in
this case would be the old growth conditions (Tionesta). I use the Tionesta
Scenic Area in the Allegheny National Forest as a control. It had a tornado
go through in around 1986 and most recently had a blow down. As far as I
know nothing has been removed and all ecological stages of trees exist. I
did soil sampling in that area in the rhizoplane.



What tornados do not do, verses doing the following after a tornado. In
other words what would removing wood from a tornado swath achieve - I.e.,
not limited too but including -



I believe, Salvaging would alter the carbon to nitrogen ratio over time.
Something to keep in mind - Reports from some countries indicate an
abundance of soluble nitrogen compounds in runoff water and even in ground
water. This is a strong indication that the carbon-nitrogen ratio has been
disrupted in the soil. It is well established from studies of the
physiology of fungal parasitism that the degree of parasitism is often
determined by the carbon-nitrogen ratio. It is probably similar for other
organisms (Shigo, 1996).



Salvaging would be removing a storehouse for moisture, which would have
provided moisture for plants and animals during dry times such as summer
drought, as it may be called (Page-Dumroese, Harvey, Jurgensen and Graham,
1991).



Salvaging would be removing present and future decayed logs, which act like
a sponge to absorb water and retain much of the water throughout the
following growing season. This water would be a survival feature during
drought for members of the system (Page-Dumroese, Harvey, Jurgensen and
Graham, 1991).



Too often "drought", what ever they mean, is used by the USFS to describe
the cause of mortality to trees, most often in areas that have been Salvaged
at one time or another. I would think that the tornado spot has great
potential for moisture retention as those 400 increment old fallen hemlock
and white pine, which are heartwood forming trees, become like a sponge.
These nurse logs may be around for a long time. Does anybody guess how long
a nurse log, from a 400 increment old Eastern Hemlock tree, would function
let's say with soil contact. After tornado a flush of birch and cherry
quickly grew and shaded the soil and nurse logs. I must return again. Last
time we had to crawl on hands and knees to get in through the thickets of
growth. A unique place to be - for sure. My son and I were in there doing
pedology work. Has anyone on this list ever crawled back in to Tionesta?

Just for fun!

http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/temp2/



Can someone offer suggestions on benefits of Salvaging and area with respect
for the health of the system?



Salvaging this area would be removing materials, that when soil contact was
made, would have played key roles with the cation exchange capacity, water -
holding capacity, bulk density, essential element and nutrient budgets and
erosion potential (Page-Dumroese, Harvey, Jurgensen and Graham, 1991).



Salvaging this area would be removing woody material that has been
identified as playing several important roles in the functioning of the
region's forests. In southwest Oregon, brown-cubical-rotted CWD acts as a
perched water reservoir, the spongy decayed wood being able to hold over
twice its own weight in water. This material thus would have otherwise been
a major source of moisture for fungi and roots well into the summer drought
that characterizes the region (Amaranthus, Trappe and Bednar, 1994). The
same has been seen in the Allegheny Mountains in the Cook State Park
Forest - Protected area, i.e., protected from Salvaging. Animals also
utilize stored water.



Salvaging this area would stop the processes, which would take place between
a fallen tree and its surroundings, which would have increased, as
decomposition would have continued. E.g., the flow of plant and animal
populations, air, water, and essential elements. (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg 12). Salvaging kills this system processes by means of disruption and
depletion causing dysfunction.



Salvaging this area would remove and reduce the forming of Large Stumps such
as in old-growth trees, which are a finite resource, and their loss from the
forest affects both soil shear strength and watershed hydrology (Maser,
Tarrant, Trappe, and Franklin, 1988, pg44-fig2.6).



Salvaging this area would remove CWD, and the associated epiphytic
bryophytes, which act as both essential element and moisture buffers for the
ecosystems (FEMAT 1993). This buffering would allow the slow release of
water and essential elements to surrounding plants. In mature and old
growth coastal forests, a large proportion of western hemlock and Sitka
spruce seedlings germinate and grow on CWD substrates (Harmon and Franklin
1989; G. Davis, pers. comm., 1994).



Salvaging this area would remove CWD, which would affect temperature as well
as moisture, which would have had the capacity to benefit certain beneficial
fungi (Amaranthus, Trappe and Bednar, 1994).



Salvaging this area would remove large, fallen trees or trees, in various
stages of decay. Salvaging is removing parent material, which would
contribute much-needed diversity to terrestrial and aquatic habitats in
forests. When most biological activity in soil is limited by low moisture
availability in summer, the material removed, fallen tree-soil interface,
would have offered a relatively cool, moist habitat for animals and a
substrate for microbial and root activity. Intensified utilization and
management can deprive future forests of large, fallen trees. The impact of
this loss on habitat diversity and on long-term forest productivity must be
determined because management needs sound information on which to base
resource management decisions (Maser and Trappe, 1984, Abstract-par2).



Salvaging this area would remove wood and its moisture-holding capacity thus
eliminating its internal processes and therefore the succession of plants
and animals. This affects the biotic community (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg4-par3).



Salvaging this are would remove some snags, which may have accumulated
moisture - carried essential elements and had a higher essential element
capital when it fell than does a tree with symplast (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg19-par2). Figure that one out!



Salvaging this area would stop colonization of decomposing wood by animals
which would have helped microbes to enter interior surfaces of the wood and
create additional openings for entry of water and essential elements; and
penetration of the wood by roots of trees, such as western hemlock (eastern
hemlock in Tionesta and white pine), which in turn facilitates entry by
mycorrhizal fungi (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg19-par4).



Salvaging this area would remove many readily available essential elements
that support opportunistic colonizers as well as the remaining essential
elements, which would be locked in the more decay resistant compounds of the
wood. Ultimately, organisms, with more sophisticated enzyme systems would,
have succeeded the rapidly growing opportunists. (Maser and Trappe, 1984,
pg37-par2)

- - - - - - - -
People that like to use Webster -

Salvage -

property or goods saved from damage or destruction

save from ruin, destruction, or harm

the act of saving goods or property that were in danger of damage or
destruction

- - - - - - - -

Salvaging this area would remove fallen tress or in some cases, future
fallen trees that when oriented along the contour of a slope, the upslope
side would be filled with humus and inorganic material which would have
allowed invertebrates and small vertebrates to tunnel alongside. The down
slope side would have provided protective cover for larger vertebrates.
When under a closed canopy, such trees would have also been saturated with
water and act as a reservoir during the dry part of the year (Maser,
Tarrant, Trappe, and Franklin, 1988, pg45-par3). Exactly the environment in
the swath at Tionesta.



Salvaging this area of so called rotten wood or so called rotten wood to be
would be removing something critical as substrate for ectomycorrhizal
formation. E.g., in one forest which contained a coniferous stand of trees
(Eastern Hemlock and White Pine are coniferous), over 95 percent of all
active mycorrhizae were in organic matter of which 21 percent were in
decayed wood. In another study in the northern Rocky Mountains, decayed
wood in soil was important. In moist, mesic, and arid habitat types (Harvey
et al. 1979), it was the most frequent substrate for active ectomycorrhizae
on the dry site, probably because of high moisture levels in the wood.
Mycorrhizal fungi can colonize logs, presumably using them as sources of
water, essential elements and nutrients. (Franklin, Cromack, Kermit, et al.
others, 1981).



Where we are. Endangered species. Salvaging this area would remove present
and future available moist microhabitats, primarily because of a lack of
large logs in intermediate and advanced stages of decay. Aubry et al.
(1988) found that some species of salamander were most abundant around CWD.
Dupuis (1993) concluded that salamander populations in Salvaged areas were
limited by available moist microhabitats, primarily because of a lack of
large logs in intermediate and advanced stages of decay (Voller and
Harrison, 1998).
Note: There are salamander species on T & E list.



Salvaging in both terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems, is removing present
and future symplastless wood, which would have functioned as a reservoir of
moisture, ameliorating drought conditions and providing a 'perched water
table' (Triska and Cromack 1979) (Voller and Harrison, 1998).



My conclusion about water: The capacity and ability, of CWD, to provide
water / moisture for fauna and flora during dryer times too often goes
unobserved, such as the case in this Painter Run Windthrow Salvage Project?
Coarse woody debris / ecoart nurse logs play a key role in providing the
requirements of water/moisture for survival of species of animals as well as
plants, be they listed as threatened and endangered or not. This function
it plays a key role during hot, drier times. To fully comprehend the
importance one must consider time. This function must be thoroughly
considered before making a decision to remove this function from the system
or not.



References:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...eferences.html



Case sensitive.



End of 2-16