After I wrote:




NOT. Do your research.

On Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:55:22 GMT, Mike wrote:




Hi Shiva,

I went to Ortho's website and checked out their PDF label for Orthenex.
When I read all the warnings regarding humans, pets, bees and birds
exposure to their product, I called Ortho. It absolutely does function as a
contact insecticide, read the label. It states "..quickly kills sprayed
insects and mites and continues controlling insects which feed on treated
plants."

I read that, and wondered about it--but because other parts of the
label said "systemic," and no parts said "contact," and because of my
own experience with NO lessening of critters in my yard over the
years, I came to the conclusion that it is not a contact insecticide.
One thing that they claim about it somewhere is that it is safe after
it dries--but not while wet.



It is extremely toxic to amphibians (my toads, geckoes and
anoles.)

This might give me pause, but we have none. Just millions of little
brown garden snakes.



The residue on the leaves is toxic and will kill bees, ladybugs,
praying mantis and any other insect on contact. It states not to use this
product if bees are visiting the area. It is toxic to birds. Birds don't
eat roses. It is contact with the residue that remains on the leaves that
kills them. I've never had a bird that sat in the bush while I was
spraying, lifting each wing for me so I can get it all over.

If this is true, why do I have birds EVERYWHERE, nesting in the
hollies and oaks--finches, robins, mourning does, towhees,
mockinbirds, and those tiny titmouse things. Plus bats and families of
chipmunks. It makes no sense, Mike. I have never, ever found a single
dead bird anywhere on the property. In four years.


It states if
you get this on your skin, seek medical attention. This is straight from
the people who want me to buy the product, so I gotta believe it. I had
three buds so far with sawfly damage, all on seperate plants. It's not
panic time, yet. I'm no chemophobe - I spray for fungal diseases. If pests
become a nightmare, I will find a product and use it.

Well, congratualtions on being the first person in this group who can
at least discuss this issue without resorting to personal attacks. I
respect your decision, and appreciate the time you put into looking
into this.

By the way, when I called them - I had to probe to get Ortho to admit this.
They started out by saying "it's systemic, it doesn't kill on contact."
When I started pointing out what was on their own label and asking how in
the world it could be toxic to things that don't eat plants, I got put on
hold and eventually someone came back on the line and confirmed that it
does kill on contact as well. The first lady I spoke with was simply
reading the label off the website as I was. She complained about how slowly
Acrobat scrolled. She initially stopped as soon as she saw the word
"systemic" and concluded that it did not kill on contact until I encouraged
her to read farther. These are not experts manning their phone banks. Dig
deeper. I'm glad to hear that you have had good results with Orthenex and
don't seem to notice a population problem with your beneficials. I'm
worried about the amphibians, birds and bees, though. They particularly
stressed how toxic it is to amphibians. I'm just trying to be safe and not
sorry. Like I said, it's not panic time yet.

Thanks,

Mike
z8TX