In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

I'm not a vineyardist. I see grapes after they are harvested.
With that said,

this is long, but at least i try to
be amusing. if you consider
stepping on a rake and getting
bonked in the head amusing...

zone 5, 1 vine, concord grapes, flat,
windy,
Depending on the amount of wind, flapping leaves can break the skin of
the grape, allowing for a point of infection. Any chance of a wind break?
full sun, plenty of moisture
through the spring (that is probably
the biggest trouble i have with the
clay/heavy soil).
What is the problem? Your vine sounds vigorous.

it's about 20 ft from an east
drainage ditch which runs all year.
and about 5 feet from another
trench that i just finished digging
the River Nile (the south drainage
ditch) down another foot and a half
(and widened it too) so that will help
keep that whole area a bit drier. that
is about 3 feet deep from the level
that the vine is at.
How wet is the soil?
Concords are pretty durable.

i cannot ammend the soil or build
it up more as this is an established vine

What kind of amendments do you want to add?

(well i could probably drill some holes
and ammend that ways, but it would
take years to make much difference)
i think taking the drainage down
another foot and a half will do as much.

in the past the vine was left in a
heap on the ground, it was run over
by a truck, mowed, and otherwise
ignored. it grew fine and even had
nice fruit in bunches without rot. not
a ton of fruit, but no troubles with
anything else.



then the formal gardens came in,
and i thought a nice arbor to climb
would be nice for it and all was good.

except it wasn't.

the surrounding area was covered
with black plastic (to keep down weeds)
and then the black plastic was covered
with slats of wood to hold down the black
plastic (not my idea, i hate plastic mulch).

the formal gardens also had plants added,
some which brought and harbor rust and
black spot fungal diseases. mulch, hollyhocks,
roses, and rhubarb, which i thought didn't
have troubles, but sometimes it gets spots
of rust on it. only noticed it last year and
this year.
If the garden is a source of fungal problems, then it needs to be
removed or sprayed.

then the black rot started taking out all
the grapes. most of them started turning
purple/brown and falling off before
summer would be through. i think that
came in heavy when we tried to get roses
to grow in the clay (and used wood chips
to mulch them). the roses are gone, the
fungus just jumped ships (or chips to be
more accurate).

i thought that perhaps the black plastic
and wood slats were harboring the fungus
spores from one year to the next. so last
fall we took all that up and i buried the
wood (which was heavily rotted anyways)
and we threw away the black plastic (as
it was heavily rotted too from sun
exposure). and we stirred the dirt some
to get at some of the weeds (raspberries
and horsetail) so that gave the sun, cold,
etc. a full fall/winter/spring to kill off the
spores, but i figured there would still be
some. i didn't spray the vine. i probably
should have.
Yeah.

except this is clay, so the spores are
probably quite happy there for a while
yet...

only reading later (after it had already
started growing out this spring) did i see
that i probably should have sprayed it
when the leaves were done and off.
i pruned it severely as usual.

Should be pruned before bud break.

sure enough this spring was wet and
long, we also had a late frost which left
some dead leaves on the plant, the black
rot came back a little, but i was hoping
that the sun and air would take care of
it as soon as it got hotter. well it isn't
as bad as it could be -- it is still there.
now along with it i have the remains
of brown spotted leaves. this is a new
trouble. hmm...

today i went out and removed as much
of the black rot and the spotted brown
leaves/stems as i could. there is enough
healthy other leaves and it will have plenty
of time to put on more growth (i probably
removed half the mass of the plant -- it
is a very healthy vine otherwise -- it really
wants to produce and always sets a heavy
crop but then i lose most of it). i thinned
out the heavy areas to let more light and
air get through and then i sprayed it as
best i could with bordeaux mix (copper
sulphate and calcium hydroxide) to knock
the fungus back. we are due for some
rain and my reading says that this is a good
time to apply (you'd think not because the
rain will wash some of it off but it will at
least help keep some of the fungus from
getting going again in the new moisture).
and it has been higher humidity lately, so
i suspect that is not going to help.
Probably need to reapply every 10 to 14 days, if you have rain.

the good news is that there is plenty of
leaves that have no sign of rot of any kind,
so i think i may get some fruit to ripen.

ok, all that history and finally some
questions:

i'm still getting flowers on it (this has been
a crazy weather year that is for sure) will
there be enough time for them to ripen?
our first frost date here is probably around
mid Sept to early Oct. or should i prune
them off?
You making wine or eating as fresh fruit? You are border line for wine.
Keep spraying. If mold gets into the flowers, the grapes will rot from
the inside out.

i imagine i will have to keep spraying
fungicides on it until the spores finally
burn out in the surrounding area (and
those on the plant itself which are in
the crooks of the branches and the bark).
am i in for years or will things ease off
next year if i spray more this season and
once the leaves fall off again?

It should abate, but need to spray is in the spring befor bud break.

i'm hoping to keep the spraying to
the elementals (copper sulphate, dusting
sulfur,
Concords are very sensitive to sulfur.

etc) and spot trim what i can out
if it seems to stay local. should i spray
the surrounding grassy areas and along
the ditch too?

I'd spray the ornamentals that you think are the source of the fungus.
that seems excessive, but

there are wild grapes growing there (quite
happily it seems as i have to keep fighting
them off). it seems rather intense to spray
so much but i'd like to be able to actually
get more than a few bunches from this
vine.

i may have lost the war this season by
starting spraying too late, but i hope it
will at least help knock it back for next
year and beyond.
A
Gardeners always plan for next year ;O)

also, i'm getting some fading in
some of the leaves, there is no
curl or other signs of trouble, but
i'm thinking that it is a natural
reaction to having the black plastic
removed and having a large
part of the root system suddenly
having to deal with a whole different
environment (hotter and dryer since
it is now exposed to the sun) and it
will have to figure it out.
Seems that it would have been hotter and drier under black plastic.
Black plastic is used for solarization, and keeps the rain out.
if we get
no rain tonight i will have to water
it good tomorrow...
?You dug channels to dry out the soil, and now you are watering it?
Unless there is something that I am missing, I'd say don't water it.

sound reasonable as a conclusion?

another idea was to plant a
new vine of something more
resistant to fungal problems, but
i'd be planting it in the same
location and there would be an
overlap -- it would have to be
resistant enough to overcome the
already problematic area. i don't
think that would work, but i consider
that the remote approach if spraying
for a few years and keeping a closer
eye on things doesn't help matters.

Concords are already, pretty resistant.

anything else obvious i'm not
seeing here (besides giving up on this
vine completely?). i can't really
start over some other place on the
property with the current layout.

thanks for your insights, heckles
or otherwise random comments.

if you managed to make it all the
way through that without wanting to
take a nap congratulations! you must
be a gardener...


songbird

You may want to browse through
http://ipmnews.msu.edu/fruit/Fruit/t...rticleView/art
icleId/92/Fungicide-update-for-berries-and-grapes.aspx
Some don't seem too bad, except for fish, so I'd worry a little about
your system of canals.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html