On Feb 19, 3:56*pm, (Cynic) wrote:
On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:06:27 -0800 (PST), Ste
wrote:

IME most people over 25 have bought their own appliances and do not
live in accomodation furnished by the landlord.

It is quite common for a fitted hob and cooker to be provided by the
landlord, and I've known several landlords to offer fully-furnished
family-sized properties at the bottom end of the market.

You make it sound like appliances are a once-in-a-lifetime purchase,
that once you have them they follow you around for the rest of your
life. In reality they require removal when moving house, and often
require replacement within several years, so the poor do not
necessarily carry a full set of high-quality appliances around with
them.

I know. *Nor does the landlord carry a warehouse full of replacement
fridges and cookers. *Perhaps you think he should?

No, not particularly. My part in this discussion arose from pointing
out that the poor must typically accept the fittings provided by their
landlord, and those fittings will usually be of lower quality than
ones we here might select for ourselves. Your suggestion that
landlords actually have a legal duty to improve such fittings if they
are of low quality, has been refuted.



I manage all my cooking very well in an inexpensive combination
microwave I acquired for free and a counter-top hob - though I
recently bought a small oven/grill (£27 Argos 883/3516) to make cheese
on toast. *You can get second-hand microwave ovens and hobs for under
£10 each without waiting too long. *If you don't have Internet to
look, Friday Ad is free.

I'm not really sure what relevance this has to my position on the
matter. I must say I wouldn't be too keen in general to make use of
second-hand cookers and microwaves - the reason such second-hand goods
are cheap relative to new, is precisely because nobody wants them and
because they lack the quality (typically, in terms of appearance) of
new goods.

Nevertheless, I can think of several people who are making do with
second-hand kitchen appliances - in two such cases, I was called upon
to fit them purely out of the goodness of my heart (which I did not
begrudge).

In a further case, I was asked by the landlord of the property to
replace a cooker as a favour to him. When I did so, I found the wiring
of the old cooker in a dangerous state, and I indulged the boyfriend
of the tenant who was bragging that he had fitted the last one
himself; I return to my point about most people lacking the necessary
skills to fit appliances themselves.



=A0The cost need not be
all that great so long as you buy second-hand and are prepared to wait
for a bargain.
Lol. How long are you typically prepared to wait with an empty stomach
and dirty clothes?

Don't be such a drama queen. *It's all part and parcel of preparing to
live in a new home.

Cynic, exactly what class of people do you have in mind here? The
sorts of people I have in mind, are being forced to move around
involuntarily, and they are typically families who have been in long-
term receipt of benefits.



*A basic microwave (if necessary borrowed from
friends or family)

How many people do you know who have spare cookers or microwaves just
lying around? I'm clean and creditworthy amongst my friends, and I'm
not sure any of them could easily spare me a microwave or cooker. In
fact, it's more the case that I'd be called upon to spare one for
others, but I would be extremely reluctant to spare my relatively
expensive appliances to people who do not have the same standards of
cleanliness as I do (or security in their home, or honest social
circle, etc.), and it would be a pure act of charity which I'm sure
any reasonable person would be embarassed to grovel for.

I really do think you're living in a completely different world to the
one I live in Cynic. At the very least, you don't seem to be facing up
to the reality of life in poor *communities*, where it's not just a
case of isolated individuals suffering temporary hard times who can
survive for a while on the charity and goodwill of those who are
comfortable, but where the balance of those who are quite comfortable
in a social group is far too little to possibly subsidise all those
who are not, and where those who are not comfortable will, given the
general trends in society, probably become more uncomfortable with
time rather than less.



is sufficient to make meals, and the local
laundromat or mummy will clean your clothes - or wash them in the bath
as people used to do if you're really stuck.

So we go back to what I said earlier, about the everyday life of the
poor being actually quite a bit more strenuous and demanding (at least
if they follow your prescriptions), but simultaneously less rewarding.
Even within your own terms Cynic, if a certain behaviour is harder and
less rewarding, you must surely agree it is less likely to be
exhibited.



There is actually more of a market in my experience
for *landlords* to make the capital investment in reasonable second-
hand appliances, and then add it onto the weekly rent, because other
than eliminating the up-front cost for those who have little money,
landlords are usually in a better position to have contacts and
knowledge, easy transportation, etc.

If they did that,

They *do* do that.



you'd be complaining about them profiteering from
the poor.

The biggest claim such landlords have is on the public purse via HB.
Nevertheless, I don't know many small landlords living the high life
today - the real beneficiaries, as always, are those who were richer
to start with, and the main losers those who were poorer, and with a
sliding scale between.



*You can indeed rent kitchen appliances instead of buying,
but it is not terrifically cost-effective IMO. *Renting electonic
goods such as TV and computers makes a bit more sense in order to
upgrade to the latest and greatest every year.

It probably is not cost effective, but it solves people's problems in
the short term, at the expense of long-term finances. Normally what
people do in the long-term, is start giving up their social and moral
pretenses in order to shed stressors and shed financial costs. So for
example, people stop paying the rent and do moonlight flits, etc.