David Hare-Scott wrote:
songbird wrote:

the basic problem is that we've gotten into the
habit of mixing human waste with potable water to
begin with.

No.

this compounds many other problems and
they tag along with the whole process. clean up
the basic misconception and you get many benefits
in result. not having to build nuclear
desalinization plants would be one of them (who
needs more chances at Fukushima? are you seriously
considering more nuclear plants in California?
are you really that idiotic? yes, i am seriously
calling you an idiot if you are building more
nuclear plants in that area).


An emotive side issue.

we're allowed emotions.


much of the use of water is simply to flush waste
materials away

It's true some water is used to flush but you still need to have a sewerage
system in cities. If using dual flush toilets and only hitting the button
when required the use on toilet flushing is not that high. There are only
small savings there. Domestically, washing and showering use much more.
Gardens, golf courses, pools, fountains, hosing the driveway etc use
astronomically more.

to me this is poor design (especially in an arid
climate). if most of the water being used is for
washing then a graywater system which keeps the
water on site is much better for recharging the
groundwater and of benefit to the plants and animals.
polluting it with waste and then having to pump
it some place else, then to be cleaned up again
is really a huge waste of energy and resources.

yes, it is the primary sytem in use now in many
places but that doesn't mean it is the best way
of doing things.


when you consider how much energy it takes to pump
and clean the water again after it is used as a waste
transport system then perhaps you'll understand the
sheer stupidity of this whole system.

most human waste is valueable and can be composted
safely without having to use all that water.


Composting toilets are fashionable round here. They smell in normal
operation and are a bitch to clean out, someone has to go in and dig them
out.

if you can smell it, then it isn't operating
normally, do you smell nasty fumes coming out of
your compost piles?

to me this is not a good design at all if you
have a system that involves paying someone else
to clean up after yourself then you're quite a
ways from simplicity.

that a poorly designed or misunderstood system
doesn't work well isn't a mystery to me. but of
course, if the people using it don't maintain it
properly or understand it then it's not going to
be the greatest. however, if you're raised to
take care of things and understand what you're
doing it's not going to be a problem.

change can be hard, but this isn't beyond most
people once they understand the reasons for doing
it and the methods involved.


You can't pay someone enough to do it.

you don't have to pay someone to do it. do you
have to pay someone to carry a bucket of compost
materials out to the compost pile?


They are suitable for deserts not cities.

false. people compost in cities.


In high humidty areas they stay too wet.

improper design. improper use. improper
maintenance. people compost in wet or humid
climates.


But you still need to
have water reticulation and sewerage networks.

no, people only need water, food, air and
shelter. there is no need for piping gray
water off site. it is lazyness and habit and
a temporary illusion of richness (mostly due
to fossil fuel use).


Flushing with grey water is more practical.

only if you have the expensive system already
paid for and installed, but then that doesn't
deal with expenses of keeping it running or
the energy involved.

if in the future energy gets more expensive
and fresh water more scarce, you'll see a lot
more changes and rethinking of how we do waste
systems.

once you switch to an in place composting system
with any grey water being handled on site processes
then there's no need to pay anyone for waste
processing any more than you pay someone to put
things on the compost heap or scrub out a bucket.


the waste which is not safely compostable (hormone
treatments, some drugs, chemotherapeutics and nuclear
medicine) should be treated differently, but those
people who know they are doing such things could be
set up with their medical providers to have a clean
disposal path for their waste (so that it does not
become a hazard to others).


Yes if the whole family is healthy compost it otherwise cart your shit to a
waste centre if any one of you are taking pills. Or have a honey pot
collection.

compost it on site and use it on site, no need to
ship it anywhere.


Can you imagine this system in a big city. In the 19th century
before the sewer was built London was called "the great wen" Get serious.

i am, any reasonably normal person can understand
composting and accomplish it.

that is then, this is now, do we understand things
better today or not?


in a world of limited resources there is no excuse
for not recycling of most materials. for areas with
limited water they certainly should not be wasting
water by using it as a waste transport mechanism.


Most of the water in the sewer is not from flushing.

it doesn't have to be, once it's contaminated
by poop that means the entire volume must be
cleaned up again. if you only had to move poop
and pee around that would be how much less per
person of material to deal with cleaning up,
processing or disposing of?

dehydrate it and reclaim that water, and then
you're down by another factor or two of reduction.
isn't that a much more efficient use of energy
and materials to deal only with the problem
instead of multiplying it?


Bird you haven't thought this out.

funny assumption, you've not seen my reading
list for the past dozen years.

a very simple system of handling waste from
people is quite possible that doesn't involve
having to move or dig out huge tanks. if you
are used to composting processes then it fits
in very well. that it will work even when the
power goes out, that it means valuable materials
don't leave the gardens, saves water, energy,
etc. that's all a bonus as far as i'm concerned.

take a look at _the humanure handbook_ it's in
third edition and online for free.

the trouble is not composting it's getting
people to accept that it can be done at all
as they are raised to flush and forget. raise
them with a different way and they'll be fine
and much better off in the long run.


songbird