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How high water head for toilet cistern
"Terryc" wrote in message
Okay, moving on from grey water to black water, or rather getting "water" into the cistern. Does anyone have any practical experience of how much head of water you need to refill a toilet cistern from a water tank. No Pump. Sounds to me like a case of simple gravity feed. All you would need is for outlet from the header tank to be above the point at which the water comes into the cistern. But having read the whole of your post, in your case you would need the top of the water level in your tank to always be above the level of the inlet to your cistern. Water levels will try to equalise so for as long as the top of your water is above the top of the inlet to the cistern, the water will try to keep running into your cistern until the float valve in the cistern shuts it off so you would need a non return valve if you go this route. Have you ever seen irrigated land with feeder channels which have a bit of black polypipe laying over the edge of the mound into the paddock? All the farmer does to move the water from the irrigation channel to his paddock is to walk along and shove the pipe into the irrigation channel, allow the pipe to fill with water, cover the end with his hand (so creating a syphon) and then drop the pipe into his paddock channel. The water then flows out from the higher level water channel into his paddock. The cut off is to just lift the pipe up and drop it back on teh bank of the channel till he next needs to irrigate. Looking for head and feed pipe size. Not hugely critical. If it's a minute pipe (say quarter of an inch) it would just take a long time to refill the cistern. If it's a 2 inch pipe it would probably be too big and you might get some splash out of the cistern. Prolly a half to an inch pipe would be about right. Are there special low pressure float valves? Prolly, but we seem to have normal cisterns on our toilets and one pan which is a proper septic pan (didn't know they existed till the plumber told me that was what it was when I complained about how bloody ghastly it was) The standard inlet size to the toilet cistern float valve is about 1/2" (?metric), however, I figure that if I run the standard 1"/25mm tank interconnect feed into it, then I will not have to worry about length of feed and the real question then is what head of water I need. Since Sydney seems to have gone back to wettish weather and the tanks are mostly full, I figure it is now time to get serious about using rainwater (and grey water?) for toilet flushing. my plan is to extend the rainwater storage by adding a thin tank on the side path that can collect (some of) the surplus rainwater from the overflows. I would also have bottom feed if I can get a suitable non-return valve. Given location, it would be feasible to dump the washing machine greywater into it. Head would be maintained in dry weather by float value from mains. I am definitely not moving to electric pump assisted[1]. Maurice the Lemming has started sending out reassurance letters to pensioners about the forthcoming changes to NSW electricity, which means bills are going to sky rocket. [1] Anyone charging a tank with PV powered pump? |
#2
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How high water head for toilet cistern
FarmI wrote:
"Terryc" wrote in message Okay, moving on from grey water to black water, or rather getting "water" into the cistern. Does anyone have any practical experience of how much head of water you need to refill a toilet cistern from a water tank. No Pump. Sounds to me like a case of simple gravity feed. Yes. Looking for ideas on refill times and how far above the top of the toilet cistern I need to place the mains top up float valve. |
#3
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How high water head for toilet cistern
"Terryc" wrote in message
FarmI wrote: "Terryc" wrote in message Okay, moving on from grey water to black water, or rather getting "water" into the cistern. Does anyone have any practical experience of how much head of water you need to refill a toilet cistern from a water tank. No Pump. Sounds to me like a case of simple gravity feed. Yes. Looking for ideas on refill times and how far above the top of the toilet cistern I need to place the mains top up float valve. ??? You asked about filling the cistern from your tank. |
#4
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How high water head for toilet cistern
FarmI wrote:
Yes. Looking for ideas on refill times and how far above the top of the toilet cistern I need to place the mains top up float valve. ??? You asked about filling the cistern from your tank. Correct, but when the tank level gets too low, I'll need to add water to the tank to keep the toilet flushing until the tank it is topped up with the next rain. Having the mains top up float as low as possible means that I use as little as possible mains water. Do not confuse it with my greywater discussions. Sydney Water has a campaign for people to connect their rainwater tanks to their toilets, but they want you to buy and install an electric water pressure pump to do this. Under their plan, you still have a mains top up float value for when the tank gets low. While I am happy to consider this, I realise that the cost of electricty, pump, etc is far more than I will ever save in reduced mains water cost, so forget it. So I am looking at gravity feed version. It just means there is less of the tank available and the mains top off float valve is installed higher. In practice, unless we had a run of dry weather, the tap for the mains top off would only be turned on when needed. What I am trying to avoid is finding that 1' above cistern head allows for one flush a day by the time it reflls. If someone comes back and says that you really need 3', then it is a no goer as not worth the effort with the existing tanks, unless I somehow hit upon a very cheap supply of tall, thin water tanks that will fit up the side path. (which has lost is effectiveness as a second side path when the new "better insulated" water heater had to go outside). |
#5
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How high water head for toilet cistern
On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:17:06 +1100, Terryc
wrote in aus.gardens: While I am happy to consider this, I realise that the cost of electricty, pump, etc is far more than I will ever save in reduced mains water cost, so forget it. With mains water at about $1 per kiloliitre you will NEVER save money on your water bill by putting in a tank water system of any description pump or no pump. Lets face it we are using something like a $1000 tank to store $5 worth of water it makes no sense economically for any city dweller. You have to do it because you think it is the right thing to do and with an eye to the future. Anyway a reasonable pump with an auto cutout can be bought for between $160 and $250 so it doesn't add that much to the total cost. and the electricity it uses to fill your toilet over a day is probably less than your TV. Regards Harold Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum - Lucretius |
#6
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How high water head for toilet cistern
Dinsdale Pirana wrote:
You have to do it because you think it is the right thing to do and with an eye to the future. Well, actually, it means I can water my veges whenever they need it. Anyway a reasonable pump with an auto cutout can be bought for between $160 and $250 so it doesn't add that much to the total cost. and the electricity it uses to fill your toilet over a day is probably less than your TV. You are forgetting all the other costs involved in setup, like plumber and electrician, especially f you want the piddling rebate. I am also suspiscious about the cheap pressure pumps around and their longevity (sp?). |
#7
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How high water head for toilet cistern
"Terryc" wrote in message
FarmI wrote: Yes. Looking for ideas on refill times and how far above the top of the toilet cistern I need to place the mains top up float valve. ??? You asked about filling the cistern from your tank. Correct, but when the tank level gets too low, I'll need to add water to the tank to keep the toilet flushing until the tank it is topped up with the next rain. Having the mains top up float as low as possible means that I use as little as possible mains water. Do not confuse it with my greywater discussions. I wasn't. I was responding directly and only to your water tank question. So I am looking at gravity feed version. It just means there is less of the tank available and the mains top off float valve is installed higher. In practice, unless we had a run of dry weather, the tap for the mains top off would only be turned on when needed. What I am trying to avoid is finding that 1' above cistern head allows for one flush a day by the time it reflls. ???? The time to refill will depend on the size off the pipe. As I wrote earlier, if you use a quarter inch drip line it would take a long time. If you use a half or one inch pipe it will take minutes. The bigger concern for only 1' of water above the cistern would be the size of your water tank. If you have one of those minute tanks that seem to be popular in the city then only 1' of water will mean tuening on the mains again pdq. If you have a 2,000 gall tank then 1' of water will flush for a long time. If someone comes back and says that you really need 3', then it is a no goer as not worth the effort with the existing tanks, unless I somehow hit upon a very cheap supply of tall, thin water tanks that will fit up the side path. (which has lost is effectiveness as a second side path when the new "better insulated" water heater had to go outside). As I explained earlier, you only need the level of the water in your tank to be above the inlet to your cistern. That is why I wrote about how farmers use the plastic pipe to move water from the irrigation channel which is only a few inches higher into their paddocks. Water will always flow to a lower level and try to equalise it's level. Just think of this as a very simple but effective devise used to build - a hose with water and 2 clear plastic ends added to the tube - the water in each clear plastic end gives a level that is true and accurate. |
#8
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How high water head for toilet cistern
FarmI wrote:
???? The time to refill will depend on the size off the pipe. As I wrote earlier, if you use a quarter inch drip line it would take a long time. If you use a half or one inch pipe it will take minutes. Okay, I was thinking about retaining the existing inlet regulator, which is 1/2" pipe and designed for mains pressure. What I think I might do is look at just putting in a trough float arm. This was effectively what the original toilet had until it wore out and was replaced by this self contained device. So, if I can fit a simple trough float arm in there as well, I could just run a parrallel pipe from the tank at ground level. So, when the tank water level drops too low, then I just turn the mains tap back on. Shouldn't be a problem with the newer plastic walled cistern, but might have to come through the bottom on the older ceramic cistern. Problem solved. We have 1,000 & 5,000 litre tanks atm. |
#9
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How high water head for toilet cistern
"Terryc" wrote in message
FarmI wrote: ???? The time to refill will depend on the size off the pipe. As I wrote earlier, if you use a quarter inch drip line it would take a long time. If you use a half or one inch pipe it will take minutes. Okay, I was thinking about retaining the existing inlet regulator, which is 1/2" pipe and designed for mains pressure. What I think I might do is look at just putting in a trough float arm. This was effectively what the original toilet had until it wore out and was replaced by this self contained device. So, if I can fit a simple trough float arm in there as well, I could just run a parrallel pipe from the tank at ground level. So, when the tank water level drops too low, then I just turn the mains tap back on. Shouldn't be a problem with the newer plastic walled cistern, but might have to come through the bottom on the older ceramic cistern. Problem solved. We have 1,000 & 5,000 litre tanks atm. Yep. That sounds good. It starts simple and you can escalate or reverse it easily if you really need to do so. I suspect you won't have to. |
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