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[IBC] Another "art" debate?
There is a very long, hard-to-read, discussion on the gallery
about the difference between a bonsai "collector" and an "artist." It ties in with one of Andy's BT Online editorials also. As discussions tend to do, it has wandered a bit, and as the thread is getting a bit long and slow loading on the gallery maybe we can move it here (if we want). The list has been very slow lately, anyway. Here's MY contribution at the end of the thread: Ernie wrote: There are people who give more credit to Mother Nature than themselves and therefore refused to call themselves artists. Does that make them bigots? Does repeating "I am an artist" a hundred times a day make one an artist? No. One is an artist or one is not. An artist would create a "work of art" in whatever medium he or she tried (assuming the presence of the requisite skills). And, Bonsai, per se is NOT an art -- I don't care how many time an insecure person declares that it is. An individual bonsai MAY be called a work of art at some given time, but left to itself and becoming overgrown or with branches that were allowed to die, is it still a work of art. Hell no! An individual may create numbers of trees of artistic merit and therefore earn himself a label -- bonsai artist. For him -- as long as he keeps on working in bonsai (and doesn't move on to become an artist in the field of bronze sculpture, or something else) bonsai may be considered an art. For most of us, bonsai is a pastime, a hobby, an avocation, a business, or a craft. If we have the ability to make a nice tree, does that make us an artist? I don't think so -- no more than the blue-haired old lady at the Senior center who can put out decent seascape painting after seascape painting can legitimately be called an artist. However, many of us can aspire to "mastering" bonsai as a craft -- and attaining journeyman status. And indeed, when we put the label of "master" onto someone skilled in making little trees, we are speaking the language of craftsmanship. And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase 'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
OK, Jim, I'll bring my comments over here, too. Maybe we should import the
other relevant posts as well? My commentary: I'm not sure what your point is, Brian. It doesn't seem quite accurate to state, "In order for there to be patrons of art, the art in question has to enter the realm of mainstream." I agree that mainstream appeal increases demand and relative value. Lack of mainstream appeal, however, doesn't necessarily mean there are no patrons, just that it is cheaper to be a patron. As you infer, bonsai is different from most art in that it is so high maintenance, and the skills to maintain are derivative as well as supplementary of those needed to create bonsai. For this reason, the patron who lacks, or lacks access to, horticultural skills will be reluctant (or foolish) to invest great sums of money into artwork which can easily perish and lose all of its value. Investors everywhere know that commodities are relatively risky investments requiring skill, knowledge and luck to earn favorable results. Bonsai are commodities with compound and complex risks which are not typically addressed in our culture or educational programs, ergo there is no large pool of patrons in western culture to invest. I'm grateful to every patron of bonsai for taking those risks, irregardless of motive. Is bonsai art? Bonsai certainly meets the dictionary or textbook definition of art as "an esthetically pleasing and meaningful arrangement of elements, as words, sounds, colors, shapes, etc.; also the productions embodying such arrangements." Personally, I think so, and that's all that really matters to me. Of course, bonsai is necessarily more than art. (No need to delve further into the obvious here.) Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com =============================== Jim Lewis wrote: There is a very long, hard-to-read, discussion on the gallery about the difference between a bonsai "collector" and an "artist." It ties in with one of Andy's BT Online editorials also. As discussions tend to do, it has wandered a bit, and as the thread is getting a bit long and slow loading on the gallery maybe we can move it here (if we want). The list has been very slow lately, anyway. Here's MY contribution at the end of the thread: Ernie wrote: There are people who give more credit to Mother Nature than themselves and therefore refused to call themselves artists. Does that make them bigots? Does repeating "I am an artist" a hundred times a day make one an artist? No. One is an artist or one is not. An artist would create a "work of art" in whatever medium he or she tried (assuming the presence of the requisite skills). And, Bonsai, per se is NOT an art -- I don't care how many time an insecure person declares that it is. An individual bonsai MAY be called a work of art at some given time, but left to itself and becoming overgrown or with branches that were allowed to die, is it still a work of art. Hell no! An individual may create numbers of trees of artistic merit and therefore earn himself a label -- bonsai artist. For him -- as long as he keeps on working in bonsai (and doesn't move on to become an artist in the field of bronze sculpture, or something else) bonsai may be considered an art. For most of us, bonsai is a pastime, a hobby, an avocation, a business, or a craft. If we have the ability to make a nice tree, does that make us an artist? I don't think so -- no more than the blue-haired old lady at the Senior center who can put out decent seascape painting after seascape painting can legitimately be called an artist. However, many of us can aspire to "mastering" bonsai as a craft -- and attaining journeyman status. And indeed, when we put the label of "master" onto someone skilled in making little trees, we are speaking the language of craftsmanship. And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
I am an artist. I do many things, one of them bonsai.
I have been in dicsussions debating whether a digital image is a "real" photo, especially if manipulated. So this discussion can be endless. I would like to start with the question: What is art? Is art only the things judged to have financial value or is it the journey one takes to do art? I think there is such a thing as a bonsai artist. I have watched Mitsuya (most recently) and others take marginal or promising material and make it into something special. On nature as artist. She makes diamonds as well as trees. Yet it takes an artisan to cut the gem to show its brilliance. Myself, although I am an artist in the general sense of the word, I am not product oriented, rather I am experience oriented. I seek no judgement of my work(s) so I free myself from the need for approval. I attempt to match no specific criteria. I also think there is an art to collecting. I viewed parts of the Smithsonian collections on my recent vacation. There is an art to choice of placement and content to make a pleasing exibition. Kitsune Miko ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
Alan Walker wrote:
OK, Jim, I'll bring my comments over here, too. Maybe we should import the other relevant posts as well? SNIP The commentary began with Raymon's questions and commentary about the role of collectors of "finished" bonsai vs. those who create bonsai. As usual, the discussion has digressed into other areas including into the age old, "Is it art?" conundrum. ;-) Below are other relevant posts as promised. Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com -------------------------------------------------- I did mention that I would post this comment of Darren's separately, because I think it would make for some stimulating input. I quote "for the most part we can stand up and say that we produced those trees ourselves", where Darren insinuated that I don’t style my own trees and rely on purchasing finished trees, as if this makes me inferior. Darren probably had the yew that I purchased from Kevin Wilson in mind although I did take home a yamadori Hawthorn as well (pics posted to make this post legal). I think that Darren’s comment provides a stimulating topic of discussion. Other than the immense and varied pleasures derived from bonsai, my aim for my own collection is to obtain the best quality trees that I can possibly collect or afford, even if this means purchasing or collecting only one tree every year or two. Unfortunately for my pocket, my sybaritic character does not allow me to settle for just anything, and I admit that I make large financial sacrifices to improve my collection. I set myself exacting standards that I admit are extreme, and will not hesitate to replace a tree that I may have put a lot of work into, if I find something even better. It is not always possible to collect quality material, so we often have to obtain trees from other collectors or vendors who are fortunate enough to have access to species of the quality we seek. I have collected and given away at least 60 cork oaks, some of them very good, yet I paid somebody for a virgin yamadori, because it was the best I had seen. We can spend a considerable amount of time and money traveling to search for material, with no guarantee of finding something that fits our parameters (last year collecting trips to Scotland, Soria and Oviedo produced expenses of around £3,000 and no trees.) I, like many, would much rather the satisfaction of finding my own virgin material or, as a second option, purchase it, but as I am seeking the absolute best, sometimes, as in the case of Kevin Wilson’s yew, the owner has already done some or most of the styling work. As my one purchasing rule is based on quality, all other considerations are secondary. In my case, I am happy to combine the traits of a straightforward collector of bonsai with those of a collector who enjoys styling his own material. Ok, so in some cases I will miss out on the pleasure of creating from scratch, but this is offset by the pleasure that owning a very special and individual piece brings. I hope that with time, experience and some advice from other artists, I will one day also create one or two special pieces. Some artists enjoy the creation process, yet once the styling is completed to their satisfaction, they are happy to sell on. Then there are the straightforward collectors, who do none of the styling or routine maintenance on their trees. If this is the way they wish to enjoy bonsai, then good for them. Many of the great Japanese trees might have been lost or spoilt, were it not for collectors like these who could afford to pay for top quality material and have it looked after by artists who did the trees justice. As long as a straightforward collector is honest and doesn’t claim the laurels for the work or artistry of others, then that’s fine. To me both the “creators” and “collectors” approach to Bonsai are equally valid. I think the majority of us are probably a combination of the two. Most of us will have purchased trees styled by others or had other artists help to style and develop our trees, at some stage in our bonsai development. It would be nice to know other people on the forum’s opinions, as Darren implied that as I only owned other people’s creations -an incorrect and deliberately misleading statement at the time, particularly as he has seen other acquisitions I have made- this somehow made pure collector’s opinions less valid. Some of the best sports coaches have never practised the sport they coach, some art or book critics have never written a book or produced a work of art, yet their opinions whether right or wrong are respected by their peers. Regards to all, Raymon -------------------------------------------------- Actually, I didn't mean that at all, but you are absolutely right; it is an interesting topic for discussion!! So, for what it is worth, here is my 2P's worth :- I would not argue with you in any way that Bonsai needs both collectors and artists, as you say, if you look at the way things are structured in Japan, most trees are owned by collectors, and they take them to artists to be worked on and both parties are honoured in different ways . Why should bonsai be any different to any other branch of the arts, people collect paintings, etc... The only difference I guess is that a bonsai collector must have knowledge of trees and of bonsai - you, for example, Raymon have an extremely good eye for trees (to be honest I don't know you or your trees well enough to know if you are a collector or an artist!!) To put my comments into perspective - I personally enjoy that bit of the art of Bonsai that is creating something from completely raw. I do know people though who would rather buy a "finished tree" and maintain and refine it and others who have workshops with known artists to improve their trees. Are any of these things not valid? I don't think so. However, where do you draw the distinction between collector and artist? I have trees in my collection which were initially styled at workshops but have since been restyled by me; are they my work? If you buy a tree and refine and improve it, does it become your work? I don't know the answer to that one. Can you see "little dragon" ever being "yours"? Just a thought ....... I do agree that honesty is a pre-requisite; it is poor form to collect and pass off others' work as your own. I have to admit I am really pi&$ed off that I can't go down to Kev's anymore and stare at the "little dragon", but I respect your eye, and if you have had to make sacrifices to own it , GOOD!!!!!!! Only kidding !! C ya Darren ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
Mo
Raymon, This is an issue that really needs to be sorted out, because there is an unhealthy measure of bigotry in bonsai along these lines. It likely arises because of the way that westerners generally view and approach bonsai - that it is a do-it-yourself endeavor. "Doing bonsai" means to start something from raw material and turn it into some semblance of a bonsai. Any other definition is viewed with suspicion and contempt. This odd ideal likely comes from the horribly ridiculous way that most judged exhibits are structured - it is the people that are judged, not the trees. There are stupid rules, like: you have to have owned the tree for 5 years - and there are stupid categories like: amateur, professional, beginner, advanced, idiots, savants, etc... None of this has anything at all to do with what should be judged: the beauty and artistry of the bonsai and it's display. All of this misguided activity prompted me to devote an entire editorial to the subject http://www.bonsaitodayonline.com/editorial038.htm , and I truly hope that one day the art of bonsai in the west can grow up and mature to the degree that other arts have - where there is room for artists and collectors, and both are regarded as important and "valid" (whatever that means). Kind regards, Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas -------------------------------------------------- Hi Andy , Have just read your article, and you touch on something that I must admit I hadn't even thought about in that context. I have done the "encouraging new club members to go and buy a bit of nursery stock" thing and had never really questioned it! U are right, though; maybe I should get them to buy a Bonsai and learn to care for it!! Having said that, in the UK it does seem that most people get into Bonsai and become enthusiasts to style trees, in fact, I think I only know one person who could be truly defined as a collector and would be happy to be so called. In your article you appear to imply that maybe it is the fault of the system and prejudice that this is the case, have I read that right? Is food for thought anyway Cheers Darren -------------------------------------------------- Andy, the problem with do-it-yourself and buying has to do with one thing - money. I personally know of only two collectors in Florida who pay to have their trees maintained/styled. Both are extremely wealthy and can afford to have gardeners take care of the rest of their stuff. The rest of us maintain our own creations and other trees that we buy. This is a big difference between bonsai and most other art. Unlike paintings, where I can buy one and hang it on the wall and pretty much not worry about it from day to day, bonsai need daily care and attention. It would be interesting for bonsai in the USA, if we developed some serious patrons of the art like exist in Japan. Then perhaps bonsai artists can make decent living from the largess of the patrons. The drawback is it would drive up the cost of good trees as has happened in Japan. I for one would hate to compete with Bill Gates in a bonsai auction. (Unless I was selling ) You are right on the competition aspect. With the advent of big competitions that judge the quality of the tree only, you might attract patrons. A close parallel is horse racing. Wealthy owners pay trainers and stable hands to groom and train the horses. The owners only watch them race and get fame and or prize money. The owners rarely even ride the horses. I have no problem with purchasing good trees, other than can I afford the price. With slow developing species, such as Japanese Black Pine, it might be the best way to go. One interesting trend that is picking up in Florida is renting bonsai trees to owners. Florida has a unique phenomena called snow birding. People, usually well off, spend the winter in Florida to escape the dreary cold up north. Some of the wealthy snow birds have taken to renting bonsai trees while they are in town. They even pay for the maintenance. So far, it is a small trend - but it might grow and then perhaps spread. Rob Kempinski ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
Still mo
Rob writes: "Andy, the problem with do-it-yourself and buying has to do with one thing - money. I personally know of only two collectors in Florida that pay to have their trees maintained/styled. Both are extremely wealthy and can afford to have gardeners take care of the rest of their stuff. ------------- Great! Now tell me why this is a problem for someone with the money to purchase fine art and have someone else maintain it? Why is this a threat to anyone who develops and maintains his/her own bonsai? This is a non-issue and begs the question why it is even brought up in such a debate. ------------- Rob continues: "It would be interesting for bonsai in the USA if we developed some serious patrons of the art like exist in Japan. Then perhaps bonsai artists can make decent living from the largess of the patrons. The drawback is it would drive up the cost of good trees as has happened in Japan. I for one would hate to compete with Bill Gates in a bonsai auction. (Unless I was selling )" --------------- You're completely wrong on this front. Contrary to driving up costs - costs for what we currently have would plummet. Given a demand for quality, the junk we currently play with would be rightly regarded as junk, and the prices would go down correspondingly. The truly good bonsai would be priced as they should - what the market would bear - and the rest would be modestly priced, just as in Japan (to follow your premise). In Japan, moderate quality bonsai are priced less than half what such material is priced in the U.S.. Look, this is really a non-issue. What is an issue, is the fact that those without gobs of money have an irrational problem with those who do and can afford to purchase fine art. This is simply silly. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas -------------------------------------------------- Well, Andy, I think you misread what I wrote. I never said it is a problem for well heeled individuals to buy trees and have someone style them. I would actually favor this. The problem, as I said it, is less heeled people can not afford to buy high quality, expensive trees. Simple statement, not much opinion involved. If these people want good bonsai, they do it themselves. This is not the problem/issue you are raising, but then the issue you are raising seems somewhat trivial. Your issue seems to be growers/do-it-yourselvers are threatened by people that buy trees only. If you carefully reread my text above, I never said a person buying a tree is a threat to someone who grows them. I don't feel this way. I encourage anyone to buy my trees for as much as possible. My heirs will appreciate it. There may be people out there that resent wealthy purchasers, but they exist in all markets, not just bonsai. Seems you are merely commenting on human nature. Perhaps a better problem to debate is why we don't have US patrons (i.e. collectors) of bonsai. People that can plop down big bucks just because the like a tree. Complaining that other people resent them is like ****ing in the wind. BTW, I beg to differ with you about the impact of patrons. First off, let me repeat what I wrote. I said "The drawback is it would drive up the cost of good trees as has happened in Japan." Emphasis on good. I never mentioned the cost impact on "non-good" trees. Good trees in Japan go for fairly large amounts of money. I am aware of two bonsai trees that sold for millions, and I personally saw and was told by the seller of a nice Japanese Black Pine that sold for $250,000. These prices were paid by what one would have to call a patron of the art. The patrons were wealthy and didn't tend for the trees themselves. These values are at least one and perhaps 2 or 3 orders of magnitude higher than what good trees sell for in the US. I never addressed the impact of patrons on lesser quality trees. Frankly, with a large enough market, I believe there would be little impact. The art market is a good analogy here. Prices range all over the place with a definite high end that US bonsai presently lacks. Rob -------------------------------------------------- Hi Rob, Forgive me if I misread your comments. Perhaps my misunderstanding stems from the fact that you cite the "problem" as not many can afford to buy good bonsai, and I see the problem that those who create from scratch usually (not always) regard collectors as not a part of the bonsai endeavor. As to patrons, again our disagreement stems from the fact that you cite the "problem" in that prices of good trees would go up if a large number of collectors were interested in the good stuff. I see the problem in that there are few of these individuals and that prices are "wrong" now. We pay high prices for junk, and there are very few bonsai in the U.S. that are worth the kinds of prices you're referring to - so prices on what we have here would NOT go up. There is little to nothing here that is worth half of what you're talking about. IF, by some miracle, a number of wealthy patrons were interested in collecting good bonsai, they'd have to go to Japan or Europe or Malaysia to get them. By the way, there will never be wealthy patrons interested in getting into the bonsai arena, so long as they are held in contempt by those who define a bonsai enthusiast as one who creates bonsai. This situation is made even more ridiculous when those who create their own bonsai refuse to - or are just plain scared to refer to themselves as artists. If you ain't an artist, you are a hobbyist. See how this term flies in our community. It flies like a lead balloon. Hobbyists take offense at the term "hobbyist," yet they refuse to term themselves as artists. No problem, but then these same individuals criticise non-artists when they collect bonsai created by an artist. Not good, folks. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas -------------------------------------------------- Let's not forget somebody else who has a big hand in the quality of the trees....... Mother Nature Regards Ian -------------------------------------------------- Dear Andy, I have also read your editorial and agree with it. In many ways it echoes the opinions I gave in a recent post where I was slagged off for suggesting (rather less politely than you!) that it was possible and, indeed, desirable for beginners to commence with good material as long as they have good advice from experienced people at hand. I think that it is preferable for the following reasons: 1. I think good material offers us the opportunity to learn more than with poor material. 2. It is much easier to sell on when our tastes change/mature. 3. It won’t end up sitting on the end of our shelves being ignored, because we can no longer bother with the effort that it warrants. 4. It is unlikely to contribute to improving the level of bonsai in the future. (I like to think that I will leave behind bonsai that people will be proud to own and enjoy.) Darren is perfectly right when he refers to the “Little Dragon”. This tree’s future has been set by Kevin Wilson, and nothing can change that unless myself or a future owner decides upon a radical change to improve the design. Fortunately or unfortunately, I think Kevin has left little room for maneuver here. I shall have to limit myself to refining as the tree matures over the next few years. I was faced with a choice when I purchased this tree: do I get ****ed off at seeing it on Kevin's shelves when I go to his garden, or do I go without a decent car, not get a new sofa, live on the bread line for a couple of months and listen to the nagging- “how could you spend THAT MUCH on a tree when we need blah blah blah……..” and put it on mine? The decision was easy really! It’s the best, and I wanted it. In Spain we have had similar arguments to those in Andy’s editorial regarding the best way to call bonsai teachers. In Spain, the word for teacher “maestro,” also happens to be the word for Master as in Messrs Kimura, Kobayashi, Kawabe, Imai etc. Unfortunately, the word was being used in the latter sense and some people got wound up by this. I suggested the use of the word “artist” instead, because we can all aspire or claim to be artists whether good, bad or just different. I like the word enthusiast just as much though. As an example, I exhibited a Tamarix at the Ginkgo that I feel is on the verge of perhaps being too clinical, too ‘over-perfected’ in its design - every weeping branch and many leaves were wired in parallel. I have reached my ‘artistic’ limits with this tree, because I am unable to think of a way to introduce design elements that break the monotony without introducing disharmony. I have designed in hardly noticeable quirks by allowing the odd branch to grow in an unexpected place, but that’s as far as it goes. At the other end of the scale were Walter Pall’s pines, that we know from his posts on the gallery are designed under his naturalistic precepts. Many observers simply assumed that the owner lacked the skill to, or had simply not bothered to refine them. We on the gallery know better, of course. Both of these approaches are equally artistic, with their own particular inherent faults. My view is that we do not do bonsai to mimic nature but to improve and refine nature’s work by making it more aesthetically pleasing. To me a truly naturalistic approach would be to place the tree in a pot and allow it to grow with minimal pruning to control the size. Walter seems to have found a halfway home between aesthetic perfection and a natural look that does not convince me personally, but is as equally artistically valid as my approach with the Tamarix. I have accused Walter on this forum of utilising the ‘naturalistic’ approach as an excuse to not refine his trees, but maybe he has opened the door to complete freedom from the bonsai shackles. Perhaps we should all go naturalistic, burn our bonsai tools, except the pruning shears, of course, and become bonsai hippies. Wow! Now that would be cool, man. Pass the smokes! Think of all those wacky-backy induced way out naturalistic designs…. Virtuals welcome!!!! Andy, my view is that collectors are a minority for one simple reason – dinero. It takes a huge amount of money to pay for the purchase and maintenance of ‘collectors items’ bonsai. This precludes all but a privileged minority. Oh, to be one of them! However, if I did have the means, I would certainly not hesitate to purchase important bonsai masterpieces from the Japanese Masters. I have wet dreams about owning Mr. Kimura’s Descending Dragon. Were I to purchase it, is the fact that I have not designed it and would have someone experienced help me care for it, so as not to spoil the design, make me less of an enthusiast. I think not, and agree with you that it is unfair that the rules of some competitions preclude the participation of collectors. I remember a story of Mr. Kimura congratulating the owner of a Kokufu award-winning tree that he had prepared on behalf of the owner. Regards Raymon ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
Just one more set of quotes:
Hi, Andy, just read your piece "Bonsai Bigotry" as per your link in reply #3. It is a good piece of work, and I recommend anyone who has a love of bonsai to take the time to read it! Things are slightly different in Europe, as we do have a number of 'collectors' but most are outside of what we know as the 'European Bonsai Scene.' Most artists tend to keep their clients to themselves to protect their income stream.... understandable I guess... I welcome patrons of the 'arts'... Throughout history they have enabled 'artists' to live, eat and continue to create great work... where would Picasso have been, if nobody bought his paintings? At a push we can all paint.... but I sure would like to own a Picasso! So, on this forum... we can all create bonsai? So, why do we condemn those who chose to buy the art? Tony -------------------------------------------------- Hi, Rob, Yes, Jim Lewis wrote something of an opposing piece to my column. It's in the archives under "BTOpinions." Kind regards, Andy -------------------------------------------------- Architects don't build their buildings, and composers don't play all the instruments in their symphonies. The big picture is what is important. Mark -------------------------------------------------- Bonsai is a great art which can and should be promoted to a higher level in any society by a determined efforts to get people with means interested in bonsai. There is little doubt that wealthy collectors or collectors cum artist helps to push the level of artistic achievement in bonsai to a higher level. Japan is a good e.g.. Europe is another. So is Malaysia. I was recently told that someone tried to buy over a bonsai for M$250,000 but was refused by the owner. The level of bonsai artistry in Malaysia has definitely grown tremendously over the years. I think the same is the case with Indonesia where there are quite a number of wealthy people interested in bonsai. Budi will be able to confirm this. However, I also believe that bonsai is also a healthy and great hobby which has and can improve the quality of life of the average person. We should not overlook this. Not many people outside Japan is aware that the average Japanese perceive bonsai as a hobby for the old. In the late 70's when I told my Japanese friends that I was taking up bonsai as a hobby, they laughed at me. They even refused my request to bring me to bonsai garden when I visited them. They rather I go to see the Nishigaiki show. Over the last few years I have opportunities to meet young Japanese through my daughter's school hosting of Japanese exchange students and the impression I get is that bonsai is still very much regarded as an old man's hobby. I may be wrong. In the West, I see plenty of interested young blood. Even one of my club in Perth has 3 members under 10 years old. People should start bonsai with materials which is within their means, within their level of experience and level of dedication. In my early days I have killed many imported Japanese semi and finished white pine, black pine, azalea. However I still have a number of tropical water jasmine which I sowed as seed since I started. This little experience of mine show the importance of working with hardy local material for beginners. I only wished I have bought some of the Wrightia bonsai which was offered to me in the 80's and which I saw exhibited in KL sometime ago. That would have been good investment. That I now can maintain a tropical species in a Mediterranean climate compared to my killing of cold climate specie in the tropic shows the importance of experience and dedication in bonsai. C J Leo -------------------------------------------------- This situation is made even more ridiculous when those who create their own bonsai refuse to - or are just plain scared to refer to themselves as artists. There are people who give more credit to Mother Nature than themselves and therefore refused to call themselves artists. Does that make them bigots? Does repeating "I am an artist" a hundred times a day make one an artist? Ernie -------------------------------------------------- In order for there to be patrons of art, the art in question has to enter the realm of mainstream. In other words, people who had no interest in it, are now deeply curious. When this happens, the price of said art depends on mass opinion. Vincent van Gogh painting furiously, yet died starved and broke. A hundred years later, his art has reached mainstream and the prices of his paintings have reached an outrageous level. Someone said that they would love to have a picasso. I ask, Is this because you understand his art and consider it to be a high point of art?--or Do you want it because mainstream has elevated his image? There is nothing wrong with buying 'finished' bonsai and then paying someone to maintain it. But there is a big difference when it comes to understanding the techniques and concepts it took to create that work of art. With bonsai there is always a necessity of keeping the tree alive. This is an art in itself. Brian -------------------------------------------------- This brings us full circle. ;-) Alan ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
HI
I think *art* is what produces an emotion.. but something that goes beyond the superficial and subjective concept of beautiful ,nice pleasant ,proportionally well done.. there are things that are remarkable but I would not wish to possess , some others instead carve a place in my emotional heart.. as some bonsais do sometimes , or items or paintings or music , or instants of lived life and this for is what I can call *ART* as they release a real and steady emotion and the emotion recalls when I think of them/or see them again after periods of time ( I do art for my pleasure as well as oil painting or crafting things) Theo Kitsune Miko wrote: I am an artist. I do many things, one of them bonsai. I have been in dicsussions debating whether a digital image is a "real" photo, especially if manipulated. So this discussion can be endless. I would like to start with the question: What is art? Is art only the things judged to have financial value or is it the journey one takes to do art? I think there is such a thing as a bonsai artist. I have watched Mitsuya (most recently) and others take marginal or promising material and make it into something special. On nature as artist. She makes diamonds as well as trees. Yet it takes an artisan to cut the gem to show its brilliance. Myself, although I am an artist in the general sense of the word, I am not product oriented, rather I am experience oriented. I seek no judgement of my work(s) so I free myself from the need for approval. I attempt to match no specific criteria. I also think there is an art to collecting. I viewed parts of the Smithsonian collections on my recent vacation. There is an art to choice of placement and content to make a pleasing exibition. Kitsune Miko ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis" ...And, Bonsai, per se is NOT an art -- I don't care how many time an insecure person declares that it is. snip of further ridiculous and erroneous observations --------------------------- Bonsai is in no way different from painting, music, sculpture or any other art, but for the medium. That Jim and others here cannot recognize this simple fact speaks to their limited perception rather than to the insecurity of those who do understand this fact. Bonsai as an activity is engaged in for the same reasons that every other art form is engaged in. Further, just as in painting or sculpture or music, the bonsai artist seeks to have his/her work evoke a response from viewers (either self or others). Just as in all other arts with other mediums, bonsai artists use their medium for self-expression and/or for the expression of a specific point of view. As in painting and music and sculpture, bonsai uses line, form, color, balance, and texture to tell a story or present a meaningful image. Just as in every art known to humankind, there are some who are adept in the skills and techniques of bonsai artistry and there are many whose skill and technique is lacking. Just as in every other art, there are those who seek to create meaningful work of the highest order and there are those who simply enjoy the activity as a hobby or pastime. It is a mistake to believe that because not everyone in the endeavor aims to create works of fine art that the art form is not an art form. So, contrary to Jim's observation above, I believe that individual insecurity is more responsible for the ridiculous claims of those who say that bonsai is not art than for the words of those who know that it is. But that's just an opinion. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.bonsai365.com/ zone 8, Texas ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
Well, I have to throw my thoughts in on this thread. First, as far as 'art' or 'artist'. Some people use a very broad brush when defining the words, some use a very tiny brush. I myself use a fairly small brush. Some things that I just don't understand are called 'art' (the exhibit of road kill in a northwestern usa art gallery or the explicit homosexual photo exhibit that caused such a fuss in the states a few years ago comes to mind). I personally, with my small brush, think that there are some very good artists in bonsai (insert name of your favorite Master here). Mostly, though, I think we are artisans and craftsmen (and craftswomen) and enthusiasts. The artisans etc. at their best, can create a good bonsai. The artist can take that same bonsai and bring it to the great and excellent level. The debate about what is art and what's not will never end because it is such a subjective thing. As a side note, I also think the definition of the word bonsai is painted with different size brushes. I've heard people say "It's a nice tree in a pot (big brush), but it's not a 'bonsai' (tiny brush)". I call my trees 'bonsai', but I use a Real Big Brush :) This thread started with the topic 'collector or artist' Again, with the word 'collector' we have different size brushes. I think everyone who does bonsai is a collector (I think of my trees a collection), but It seems the context of the word in this thread is aimed at people who purchase finished 'great' bonsai and either maintain them themselves or pay someone to do the job. I see nothing wrong with being that sort of collector. I think though, that if there is any animosity at all toward this kind of collector, it's because some (Not all. This is probably one of those areas where a few give the rest a bad name) of these folks try to take credit for the great bonsai as if they were responsible for it's design and creation and greatness, when in reality they are only the owner or 'maintenance man' Collectors in other areas have pride in owning their collection but their pride comes from the association (of the collection) with the person who created the thing(s) in the first place. You don't see collectors displaying something by a complete unknown as the centerpiece of their collection. It's the provenance of a piece that gives it value to honest collectors, not the fact that they own it. You don't see people scraping Van Goghs signature off a painting and putting their own in its place or prying the emblem off their rare Rolls Royce and affixing their own emblem or buying a Gucci handbag and rebranding it. Someone made a comparison to horse racing. Yes, the owner gets praise and congratulations for owning the winning horse, but the trainer gets the credit and as much publicity (if not more) for creating the winning horse. So, folks, let's continue this debate. Try to do one thing though. If you haven't got a reasonable argument on a subject, don't resort to calling things 'stupid' or someone a 'idiot' or ridiculing someone's viewpoint. Doing that just reduces your credibility. The above are just my own personal opinions. Others have and are welcome to their different views. Thank goodness we are not all the same! What a boring world it would be. Jay Wilson |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
Well, I have to throw my thoughts in on this thread.
And very good ones they were. Thanks. First, as far as 'art' or 'artist'. Some people use a very broad brush when defining the words, some use a very tiny brush. I myself use a fairly small brush. Some things that I just don't understand are called 'art' (the exhibit of road kill in a northwestern usa art gallery or the explicit homosexual photo exhibit that caused such a fuss in the states a few years ago comes to mind). I personally, with my small brush, think that there are some very good artists in bonsai (insert name of your favorite Master here). Mostly, though, I think we are artisans and craftsmen (and craftswomen) and enthusiasts. The artisans etc. at their best, can create a good bonsai. The artist can take that same bonsai and bring it to the great and excellent level. The debate about what is art and what's not will never end because it is such a subjective thing. And, some rather forceful opinions here to the contrary notwistanding (or something like that ;-), there is absolutely nothing wrong with bonsai as a craft. Craftsmanship is an honorable goal -- and throughout history, a craftsman has often had a much higher staus in the community than the artist -- who often was considered a community ne'er-do-well (at least until he/she dies). The crafts -- and their guilds -- played important roles in the community. (Frankly, I'd rather be an acknowledged craftsman than hold an MBA -- especially these days. ;-) snip This thread started with the topic 'collector or artist' Again, with the word 'collector' we have different size brushes. I think everyone who does bonsai is a collector (I think of my trees a collection), but It seems the context of the word in this thread is aimed at people who purchase finished 'great' bonsai and either maintain them themselves or pay someone to do the job. I see nothing wrong with being that sort of collector. Yes. There are collections and then there are collections -- just as there are collectors of various stripes, too. Anyone with more than two bonsai can probably claim a "collection." At the beginning of this year, I had 300 trees: a COLLECTION. I now have about 75, the rest gathering termits in the woods, or growing in my garden (the unwanted azaleas and camellias). That's a more manageable "collection," IMHO. As I said in one of my dissents in BT Online, I have never bought a "finished" bonsai and cannot imagine an instance when I would. To me, much of the enjoyment of bonsai is in the making -- however, good or indifferent the results might be. I also enjoy learning how the different trees grow and behave. You don't do that by purchasing someone else's work, then hiring out the regular maintenance. I've bought a lot of nursery stuff. I have even bought a couple of pre-bonsai (a couple of Satsuki that had had a bend or two put into their trunks and roots pruned at least once). I do not (and probably cannot) understand the person who buys a tree (or a dog) and never tries to train it himself. As I said in another BT Online piece, I wouldn't know what to say to someone like that (and if you, dear reader, are one of them . . . .. sorry). I collect; lots of things: netsuke, Japanese swords, old maps, prints -- especially Japanese woodblocks -- and books, among others. But all of them are pretty passive things. They get dusted occasionally, and I like to read them and about them and learn about their makers, etc. but they won't change (assuming I keep the humidity adjusted, the silverfish away, and polish the blades occasionally). Collecting bonsai -- and hiring out the upkeep (thus learning little or nothing about the tree) -- is totally foreign to me. I think though, that if there is any animosity at all toward this kind of collector, it's because some (Not all. This is probably one of those areas where a few give the rest a bad name) of these folks try to take credit for the great bonsai as if they were responsible for it's design and creation and greatness, when in reality they are only the owner or 'maintenance man' Collectors in other areas have pride in owning their collection but their pride comes from the association (of the collection) with the person who created the thing(s) in the first place. I've never run into one of these -- and hope I don't. You don't see collectors displaying something by a complete unknown as the centerpiece of their collection. It's the provenance of a piece that gives it value to honest collectors, not the fact that they own it. You don't see people scraping Van Goghs signature off a painting and putting their own in its place or prying the emblem off their rare Rolls Royce and affixing their own emblem or buying a Gucci handbag and rebranding it. Someone made a comparison to horse racing. Yes, the owner gets praise and congratulations for owning the winning horse, but the trainer gets the credit and as much publicity (if not more) for creating the winning horse. So, folks, let's continue this debate. Try to do one thing though. If you haven't got a reasonable argument on a subject, don't resort to calling things 'stupid' or someone a 'idiot' or ridiculing someone's viewpoint. Doing that just reduces your credibility. A-dang-men! So far (mostly) it's been a good-spirited, un-acrimonious, discussion with only a moderate amount of sanctimony cropping up. ;-) The above are just my own personal opinions. Others have and are welcome to their different views. Thank goodness we are not all the same! What a boring world it would be. BUT . . . probably a lot more peaceful. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Alas for the lack of peace! ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis" snip And, some rather forceful opinions here to the contrary notwistanding (or something like that ;-), there is absolutely nothing wrong with bonsai as a craft. snip ------------------- Why the distinction between art and craft? All art involves craft. You're right, there is nothing wrong with bonsai as a craft. Being a craft and its participants using craft in no way interferes with the fact that bonsai is an art form. Why would you believe that it does? Kind regards, Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
From: "Andy Rutledge"
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" snip And, some rather forceful opinions here to the contrary notwistanding (or something like that ;-), there is absolutely nothing wrong with bonsai as a craft. snip ------------------- Why the distinction between art and craft? All art involves craft. You're right, there is nothing wrong with bonsai as a craft. Being a craft and its participants using craft in no way interferes with the fact that bonsai is an art form. Why would you believe that it does? Well, I don't know how many times I have to say this (and you'll no doubt say "lots, because you're wrong," to which I have to reply with a shrug) but I said earlier in this discussion that in the right hands, bonsai CAN be an art. But just like all painting is not "art" so all bonsai is not "art." (You don't -- EVER -- want to see me do a painting!) As for craft, there's always been a distinction between "art" and "craft" (but don't ask me to tell you what it is; that what this -- and many other -- discussion is about). And yes, there is (can be) craft involved in art -- though true artists can (and have) created art with very little "craft" knowledge. The "craft" in art, however, is the technique you learn to make you a BETTER artist. The craft in "bonsai art" is learning how to do proper wiring, learning how the species you are working on behaves under certain conditions, etc. But knowing those skills does NOT make one an artist. The craft is teachable. The art isn't (largely). Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Having fun . .. . even if Andy isn't. ;-) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] Another "art" debate?
Andy Rutledge wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" ...And, Bonsai, per se is NOT an art -- I don't care how many time an insecure person declares that it is. snip of further ridiculous and erroneous observations --------------------------- Bonsai is in no way different from painting, music, sculpture or any other art, but for the medium. That Jim and others here cannot recognize this simple fact speaks to their limited perception rather than to the insecurity of those who do understand this fact. Andy, I actually agree with you. However, statements about *your* perception of somebody else's lack of perception or their perceived insecurity do *not* help your argument, but only undermine it. Bonsai as an activity is engaged in for the same reasons that every other art form is engaged in. Further, just as in painting or sculpture or music, the bonsai artist seeks to have his/her work evoke a response from viewers (either self or others). Just as in all other arts with other mediums, bonsai artists use their medium for self-expression and/or for the expression of a specific point of view. As in painting and music and sculpture, bonsai uses line, form, color, balance, and texture to tell a story or present a meaningful image. Although I can't speak for artists who use other media, I would add that the difference with bonsai is that the material is living and this makes bonsai interactive, to use an over-used term. However, other media change with time. Paintings accumulate layers of grime, statues develop a patina, that sort of thing. So, even static media change with time and the changes become a part of the piece of art. snip So, contrary to Jim's observation above, I believe that individual insecurity is more responsible for the ridiculous claims of those who say that bonsai is not art than for the words of those who know that it is. But that's just an opinion. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.bonsai365.com/ zone 8, Texas Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Lisa Kanis++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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