There is a very long, hard-to-read, discussion on the gallery
about the difference between a bonsai "collector" and an
"artist." It ties in with one of Andy's BT Online editorials
also.

As discussions tend to do, it has wandered a bit, and as the
thread is getting a bit long and slow loading on the gallery
maybe we can move it here (if we want). The list has been very
slow lately, anyway.

Here's MY contribution at the end of the thread:

Ernie wrote:

There are people who give more credit to Mother Nature than
themselves and therefore refused to call themselves artists. Does
that make them bigots? Does repeating "I am an artist" a hundred
times a day make one an artist?

No.

One is an artist or one is not. An artist would create a "work
of art" in whatever medium he or she tried (assuming the presence
of the requisite skills).

And, Bonsai, per se is NOT an art -- I don't care how many time
an insecure person declares that it is.

An individual bonsai MAY be called a work of art at some given
time, but left to itself and becoming overgrown or with branches
that were allowed to die, is it still a work of art.

Hell no!

An individual may create numbers of trees of artistic merit and
therefore earn himself a label -- bonsai artist. For him -- as
long as he keeps on working in bonsai (and doesn't move on to
become an artist in the field of bronze sculpture, or something
else) bonsai may be considered an art.

For most of us, bonsai is a pastime, a hobby, an avocation, a
business, or a craft. If we have the ability to make a nice
tree, does that make us an artist? I don't think so -- no more
than the blue-haired old lady at the Senior center who can put
out decent seascape painting after seascape painting can
legitimately be called an artist.

However, many of us can aspire to "mastering" bonsai as a
craft -- and attaining journeyman status. And indeed, when we
put the label of "master" onto someone skilled in making little
trees, we are speaking the language of craftsmanship.

And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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OK, Jim, I'll bring my comments over here, too. Maybe we should import the
other relevant posts as well?
My commentary:
I'm not sure what your point is, Brian. It doesn't seem quite accurate to
state, "In order for there to be patrons of art, the art in question has to enter
the realm of mainstream." I agree that mainstream appeal increases demand and
relative value. Lack of mainstream appeal, however, doesn't necessarily mean there
are no patrons, just that it is cheaper to be a patron.
As you infer, bonsai is different from most art in that it is so high
maintenance, and the skills to maintain are derivative as well as supplementary of
those needed to create bonsai. For this reason, the patron who lacks, or lacks
access to, horticultural skills will be reluctant (or foolish) to invest great sums
of money into artwork which can easily perish and lose all of its value. Investors
everywhere know that commodities are relatively risky investments requiring skill,
knowledge and luck to earn favorable results. Bonsai are commodities with compound
and complex risks which are not typically addressed in our culture or educational
programs, ergo there is no large pool of patrons in western culture to invest. I'm
grateful to every patron of bonsai for taking those risks, irregardless of motive.
Is bonsai art? Bonsai certainly meets the dictionary or textbook definition
of art as "an esthetically pleasing and meaningful arrangement of elements, as
words, sounds, colors, shapes, etc.; also the productions embodying such
arrangements."
Personally, I think so, and that's all that really matters to me. Of course,
bonsai is necessarily more than art. (No need to delve further into the obvious
here.)
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
===============================
Jim Lewis wrote:
There is a very long, hard-to-read, discussion on the gallery about the difference
between a bonsai "collector" and an "artist." It ties in with one of Andy's BT
Online editorials also.

As discussions tend to do, it has wandered a bit, and as the thread is getting a bit
long and slow loading on the gallery maybe we can move it here (if we want). The
list has been very slow lately, anyway.

Here's MY contribution at the end of the thread:

Ernie wrote:
There are people who give more credit to Mother Nature than themselves and
therefore refused to call themselves artists. Does that make them bigots? Does
repeating "I am an artist" a hundred times a day make one an artist?

No.

One is an artist or one is not. An artist would create a "work of art" in whatever
medium he or she tried (assuming the presence of the requisite skills).

And, Bonsai, per se is NOT an art -- I don't care how many time an insecure person
declares that it is.

An individual bonsai MAY be called a work of art at some given time, but left to
itself and becoming overgrown or with branches that were allowed to die, is it still
a work of art.

Hell no!

An individual may create numbers of trees of artistic merit and therefore earn
himself a label -- bonsai artist. For him -- as long as he keeps on working in
bonsai (and doesn't move on to become an artist in the field of bronze sculpture, or
something else) bonsai may be considered an art.

For most of us, bonsai is a pastime, a hobby, an avocation, a business, or a craft.
If we have the ability to make a nice tree, does that make us an artist? I don't
think so -- no more than the blue-haired old lady at the Senior center who can put
out decent seascape painting after seascape painting can
legitimately be called an artist.

However, many of us can aspire to "mastering" bonsai as a craft -- and attaining
journeyman status. And indeed, when we put the label of "master" onto someone
skilled in making little trees, we are speaking the language of craftsmanship.
And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!
Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL

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I am an artist. I do many things, one of them bonsai.
I have been in dicsussions debating whether a digital
image is a "real" photo, especially if manipulated.

So this discussion can be endless.

I would like to start with the question: What is art?

Is art only the things judged to have financial value
or is it the journey one takes to do art?

I think there is such a thing as a bonsai artist. I
have watched Mitsuya (most recently) and others take
marginal or promising material and make it into
something special.

On nature as artist. She makes diamonds as well as
trees. Yet it takes an artisan to cut the gem to show
its brilliance.

Myself, although I am an artist in the general sense
of the word, I am not product oriented, rather I am
experience oriented. I seek no judgement of my
work(s) so I free myself from the need for approval.
I attempt to match no specific criteria.

I also think there is an art to collecting. I viewed
parts of the Smithsonian collections on my recent
vacation. There is an art to choice of placement and
content to make a pleasing exibition.

Kitsune Miko

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Alan Walker wrote:
OK, Jim, I'll bring my comments over here, too. Maybe we should import the
other relevant posts as well? SNIP
The commentary began with Raymon's questions and commentary about the role of
collectors of "finished" bonsai vs. those who create bonsai. As usual, the discussion
has digressed into other areas including into the age old, "Is it art?" conundrum. ;-)
Below are other relevant posts as promised.
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
--------------------------------------------------

I did mention that I would post this comment of Darren's separately, because I
think it would make for some stimulating input.
I quote "for the most part we can stand up and say that we produced those trees
ourselves", where Darren insinuated that I don’t style my own trees and rely on
purchasing finished trees, as if this makes me inferior. Darren probably had the yew
that I purchased from Kevin Wilson in mind although I did take home a yamadori Hawthorn
as well (pics posted to make this post legal).
I think that Darren’s comment provides a stimulating topic of discussion. Other
than the immense and varied pleasures derived from bonsai, my aim for my own collection
is to obtain the best quality trees that I can possibly collect or afford, even if this
means purchasing or collecting only one tree every year or two. Unfortunately for my
pocket, my sybaritic character does not allow me to settle for just anything, and I
admit that I make large financial sacrifices to improve my collection. I set myself
exacting standards that I admit are extreme, and will not hesitate to replace a tree
that I may have put a lot of work into, if I find something even better.
It is not always possible to collect quality material, so we often have to
obtain trees from other collectors or vendors who are fortunate enough to have access to
species of the quality we seek. I have collected and given away at least 60 cork oaks,
some of them very good, yet I paid somebody for a virgin yamadori, because it was the
best I had seen.
We can spend a considerable amount of time and money traveling to search for
material, with no guarantee of finding something that fits our parameters (last year
collecting trips to Scotland, Soria and Oviedo produced expenses of around £3,000 and no
trees.) I, like many, would much rather the satisfaction of finding my own virgin
material or, as a second option, purchase it, but as I am seeking the absolute best,
sometimes, as in the case of Kevin Wilson’s yew, the owner has already done some or most
of the styling work. As my one purchasing rule is based on quality, all other
considerations are secondary. In my case, I am happy to combine the traits of a
straightforward collector of bonsai with those of a collector who enjoys styling his own
material. Ok, so in some cases I will miss out on the pleasure of creating from scratch,
but this is offset by the pleasure that owning a very special and individual piece
brings. I hope that with time, experience and some advice from other artists, I will one
day also create one or two special pieces.
Some artists enjoy the creation process, yet once the styling is completed to
their satisfaction, they are happy to sell on. Then there are the straightforward
collectors, who do none of the styling or routine maintenance on their trees. If this is
the way they wish to enjoy bonsai, then good for them. Many of the great Japanese trees
might have been lost or spoilt, were it not for collectors like these who could afford
to pay for top quality material and have it looked after by artists who did the trees
justice. As long as a straightforward collector is honest and doesn’t claim the laurels
for the work or artistry of others, then that’s fine. To me both the “creators” and
“collectors” approach to Bonsai are equally valid. I think the majority of us are
probably a combination of the two. Most of us will have purchased trees styled by others
or had other artists help to style and develop our trees, at some stage in our bonsai
development.
It would be nice to know other people on the forum’s opinions, as Darren implied
that as I only owned other people’s creations -an incorrect and deliberately misleading
statement at the time, particularly as he has seen other acquisitions I have made- this
somehow made pure collector’s opinions less valid. Some of the best sports coaches have
never practised the sport they coach, some art or book critics have never written a book
or produced a work of art, yet their opinions whether right or wrong are respected by
their peers.
Regards to all,
Raymon
--------------------------------------------------

Actually, I didn't mean that at all, but you are absolutely right; it is an
interesting topic for discussion!! So, for what it is worth, here is my 2P's worth :-
I would not argue with you in any way that Bonsai needs both collectors and
artists, as you say, if you look at the way things are structured in Japan, most trees
are owned by collectors, and they take them to artists to be worked on and both parties
are honoured in different ways .
Why should bonsai be any different to any other branch of the arts, people
collect paintings, etc... The only difference I guess is that a bonsai collector must
have knowledge of trees and of bonsai - you, for example, Raymon have an extremely good
eye for trees (to be honest I don't know you or your trees well enough to know if you
are a collector or an artist!!)
To put my comments into perspective - I personally enjoy that bit of the art of
Bonsai that is creating something from completely raw. I do know people though who would
rather buy a "finished tree" and maintain and refine it and others who have workshops
with known artists to improve their trees. Are any of these things not valid? I don't
think so.
However, where do you draw the distinction between collector and artist? I have
trees in my collection which were initially styled at workshops but have since been
restyled by me; are they my work? If you buy a tree and refine and improve it, does it
become your work? I don't know the answer to that one. Can you see "little dragon" ever
being "yours"? Just a thought .......
I do agree that honesty is a pre-requisite; it is poor form to collect and pass
off others' work as your own. I have to admit I am really pi&$ed off that I can't go
down to Kev's anymore and stare at the "little dragon", but I respect your eye, and if
you have had to make sacrifices to own it , GOOD!!!!!!! Only kidding !!
C ya
Darren


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Mo
Raymon,
This is an issue that really needs to be
sorted out, because there is an unhealthy measure
of bigotry in bonsai along these lines. It likely
arises because of the way that westerners
generally view and approach bonsai - that it is a
do-it-yourself endeavor.
"Doing bonsai" means to start something
from raw material and turn it into some semblance
of a bonsai. Any other definition is viewed with
suspicion and contempt. This odd ideal likely
comes from the horribly ridiculous way that most
judged exhibits are structured - it is the people
that are judged, not the trees. There are stupid
rules, like: you have to have owned the tree for 5
years - and there are stupid categories like:
amateur, professional, beginner, advanced, idiots,
savants, etc... None of this has anything at all
to do with what should be judged: the beauty and
artistry of the
bonsai and it's display.
All of this misguided activity prompted me
to devote an entire editorial to the subject
http://www.bonsaitodayonline.com/editorial038.htm
, and I truly hope that one day the art of bonsai
in the west can grow up and mature to the degree
that other arts have - where there is room for
artists and collectors, and both are regarded as
important and "valid" (whatever that means).
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas
--------------------------------------------------
Hi Andy ,
Have just read your article, and you touch
on something that I must admit I hadn't even
thought about in that context.
I have done the "encouraging new club
members to go and buy a bit of nursery stock"
thing and had never really questioned it! U are
right, though; maybe I should get them to buy a
Bonsai and learn to care for it!!
Having said that, in the UK it does seem
that most people get into Bonsai and become
enthusiasts to style trees, in fact, I think I
only know one person who could be truly defined as
a collector and would be happy to be so called.
In your article you appear to imply that
maybe it is the fault of the system and prejudice
that this is the case, have I read that right? Is
food for thought anyway
Cheers
Darren
--------------------------------------------------

Andy, the problem with do-it-yourself and buying
has to do with one thing - money. I personally
know of only two collectors in Florida who pay to
have their trees maintained/styled. Both are
extremely wealthy and can afford to have gardeners
take care of the rest of their stuff.
The rest of us maintain our own creations
and other trees that we buy. This is a big
difference between bonsai and most other art.
Unlike paintings, where I can buy one and hang it
on the wall and pretty much not worry about it
from day to day, bonsai need daily care and
attention.
It would be interesting for bonsai in the
USA, if we developed some serious patrons of the
art like exist in Japan. Then perhaps bonsai
artists can make decent living from the largess of
the patrons. The drawback is it would drive up the
cost of good trees as has happened in Japan. I for
one would hate to compete with Bill Gates in a
bonsai auction. (Unless I was selling )
You are right on the competition aspect.
With the advent of big competitions that judge the
quality of the tree only, you might attract
patrons. A close parallel is horse racing. Wealthy
owners pay trainers and stable hands to groom and
train the horses. The owners only watch them race
and get fame and or prize money. The owners rarely
even ride the horses.
I have no problem with purchasing good
trees, other than can I afford the price. With
slow developing species, such as Japanese Black
Pine, it might be the best way to go.
One interesting trend that is picking up
in Florida is renting bonsai trees to owners.
Florida has a unique phenomena called snow
birding. People, usually well off, spend the
winter in Florida to escape the dreary cold up
north. Some of the wealthy snow birds have taken
to renting bonsai trees while they are in town.
They even pay for the maintenance. So far, it is a
small trend - but it might grow and then perhaps
spread.
Rob Kempinski

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Still mo
Rob writes: "Andy, the problem with do-it-yourself
and buying has to do with one thing - money. I
personally know of only two collectors in Florida
that pay to have their trees maintained/styled.
Both are extremely wealthy and can afford to have
gardeners take care of the rest of their stuff.
-------------
Great! Now tell me why this is a problem
for someone with the money to purchase fine art
and have someone else maintain it? Why is this a
threat to anyone who develops and maintains
his/her own bonsai? This is a non-issue and begs
the question why it is even brought up in such a
debate.
-------------
Rob continues: "It would be interesting for bonsai
in the USA if we developed some serious patrons of
the art like exist in Japan. Then perhaps bonsai
artists can make decent living from the largess of
the patrons. The drawback is it would drive up the
cost of good trees as has happened in Japan. I for
one would hate to compete with Bill Gates in a
bonsai auction. (Unless I was selling )"
---------------
You're completely wrong on this front.
Contrary to driving up costs - costs for what we
currently have would plummet. Given a demand for
quality, the junk we currently play with would be
rightly regarded as junk, and the prices would go
down correspondingly. The truly good bonsai would
be priced as they should - what the market would
bear - and the rest would be modestly priced, just
as in Japan (to follow your premise). In Japan,
moderate quality bonsai are priced less than half
what such material is priced in the U.S..
Look, this is really a non-issue. What is
an issue, is the fact that those without gobs of
money have an irrational problem with those who do
and can afford to purchase fine art. This is
simply silly.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas
--------------------------------------------------

Well, Andy, I think you misread what I
wrote. I never said it is a problem for well
heeled individuals to buy trees and have someone
style them. I would actually favor this. The
problem, as I said it, is less heeled people can
not afford to buy high quality, expensive trees.
Simple statement, not much opinion involved. If
these people want good bonsai, they do it
themselves. This is not the problem/issue you are
raising, but then the issue you are raising seems
somewhat trivial. Your issue seems to be
growers/do-it-yourselvers are threatened by people
that buy trees only. If you carefully reread my
text above, I never said a person buying a tree is
a threat to someone who grows them. I don't feel
this way. I encourage anyone to buy my trees for
as much as possible. My heirs will appreciate it.
There may be people out there that resent
wealthy purchasers, but they exist in all markets,
not just bonsai. Seems you are merely commenting
on human nature.
Perhaps a better problem to debate is why
we don't have US patrons (i.e. collectors) of
bonsai. People that can plop down big bucks just
because the like a tree. Complaining that other
people resent them is like ****ing in the wind.
BTW, I beg to differ with you about the
impact of patrons. First off, let me repeat what I
wrote. I said "The drawback is it would drive up
the cost of good trees as has happened in Japan."
Emphasis on good. I never mentioned the cost
impact on "non-good" trees. Good trees in Japan go
for fairly large amounts of money. I am aware of
two bonsai trees that sold for millions, and I
personally saw and was told by the seller of a
nice Japanese Black Pine that sold for $250,000.
These prices were paid by what one would have to
call a patron of the art. The patrons were wealthy
and didn't tend for the trees themselves. These
values are at least one and perhaps 2 or 3 orders
of magnitude higher than what good trees sell for
in the US.
I never addressed the impact of patrons on
lesser quality trees. Frankly, with a large enough
market, I believe there would be little impact.
The art market is a good analogy here. Prices
range all over the place with a definite high end
that US bonsai presently lacks.
Rob
--------------------------------------------------

Hi Rob,
Forgive me if I misread your comments.
Perhaps my misunderstanding stems from the fact
that you cite the "problem" as not many can afford
to buy good bonsai, and I see the problem that
those who create from scratch usually (not always)
regard collectors as not a part of the bonsai
endeavor.
As to patrons, again our disagreement
stems from the fact that you cite the "problem" in
that prices of good trees would go up if a large
number of collectors were interested in the good
stuff. I see the problem in that there are few of
these individuals and that prices are "wrong" now.
We pay high prices for junk, and there are very
few bonsai in the U.S. that are worth the kinds of
prices you're referring to - so prices on what we
have here would NOT go up. There is little to
nothing here that is worth half of what you're
talking about.
IF, by some miracle, a number of wealthy
patrons were interested in collecting good bonsai,
they'd have to go to Japan or Europe or Malaysia
to get them. By the way, there will never be
wealthy patrons interested in getting into the
bonsai arena, so long as they are held in contempt
by those who define a bonsai enthusiast as one who
creates bonsai.
This situation is made even more ridiculous when
those who create their own bonsai refuse to - or
are just plain scared to refer to themselves as
artists. If you ain't an artist, you are a
hobbyist. See how this term flies in our
community. It flies like a lead balloon.
Hobbyists take offense at the term
"hobbyist," yet they refuse to term themselves as
artists. No problem, but then these same
individuals criticise non-artists when they
collect bonsai created by an artist.
Not good, folks.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas
--------------------------------------------------
Let's not forget somebody else who has a big hand
in the quality of the trees....... Mother Nature
Regards
Ian
--------------------------------------------------

Dear Andy,
I have also read your editorial and agree
with it. In many ways it echoes the opinions I
gave in a recent post where I was slagged off for
suggesting (rather less politely than you!) that
it was possible and, indeed, desirable for
beginners to commence with good material as long
as they have good advice from experienced people
at hand. I think that it is preferable for the
following reasons:
1. I think good material offers us the opportunity
to learn more than with poor material.
2. It is much easier to sell on when our tastes
change/mature.
3. It won’t end up sitting on the end of our
shelves being ignored, because we can no longer
bother with the effort that it warrants.
4. It is unlikely to contribute to improving the
level of bonsai in the future. (I like to think
that I will leave behind bonsai that people will
be proud to own and enjoy.)
Darren is perfectly right when he refers
to the “Little Dragon”. This tree’s future has
been set by Kevin Wilson, and nothing can change
that unless myself or a future owner decides upon
a radical change to improve the design.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I think Kevin has
left little room for maneuver here. I shall have
to limit myself to refining as the tree matures
over the next few years. I was faced with a choice
when I purchased this tree: do I get ****ed off at
seeing it on Kevin's shelves when I go to his
garden, or do I go without a decent car, not get a
new sofa, live on the bread line for a couple of
months and listen to the nagging- “how could you
spend THAT MUCH on a tree when we need blah blah
blah……..” and put it on mine? The decision was
easy really! It’s the best, and I wanted it.
In Spain we have had similar arguments to
those in Andy’s editorial regarding the best way
to call bonsai teachers. In Spain, the word for
teacher “maestro,” also happens to be the word for
Master as in Messrs Kimura, Kobayashi, Kawabe,
Imai etc.
Unfortunately, the word was being used in
the latter sense and some people got wound up by
this. I suggested the use of the word “artist”
instead, because we can all aspire or claim to be
artists whether good, bad or just different. I
like the word enthusiast just as much though.
As an example, I exhibited a Tamarix at
the Ginkgo that I feel is on the verge of perhaps
being too clinical, too ‘over-perfected’ in its
design - every weeping branch and many leaves were
wired in parallel. I have reached my ‘artistic’
limits with this tree, because I am unable to
think of a way to introduce design elements that
break the monotony without introducing disharmony.
I have designed in hardly noticeable quirks by
allowing the odd branch to grow in an unexpected
place, but that’s as far as it goes.
At the other end of the scale were Walter
Pall’s pines, that we know from his posts on the
gallery are designed under his naturalistic
precepts. Many observers simply assumed that the
owner lacked the skill to, or had simply not
bothered to refine them. We on the gallery know
better, of course.
Both of these approaches are equally
artistic, with their own particular inherent
faults. My view is that we do not do bonsai to
mimic nature but to improve and refine nature’s
work by making it more aesthetically pleasing. To
me a truly naturalistic approach would be to place
the tree in a pot and allow it to grow with
minimal pruning to control the size.
Walter seems to have found a halfway home
between aesthetic perfection and a natural look
that does not convince me personally, but is as
equally artistically valid as my approach with the
Tamarix. I have accused Walter on this forum of
utilising the ‘naturalistic’ approach as an excuse
to not refine his trees, but maybe he has opened
the door to complete freedom from the bonsai
shackles. Perhaps we should all go naturalistic,
burn our bonsai tools, except the pruning shears,
of course, and become bonsai hippies. Wow! Now
that would be cool, man. Pass the smokes! Think of
all those wacky-backy induced way out naturalistic
designs…. Virtuals welcome!!!!
Andy, my view is that collectors are a
minority for one simple reason – dinero. It takes
a huge amount of money to pay for the purchase and
maintenance of ‘collectors items’ bonsai. This
precludes all but a privileged minority. Oh, to be
one of them! However, if I did have the means, I
would certainly not hesitate to purchase important
bonsai masterpieces from the Japanese Masters. I
have wet dreams about owning Mr. Kimura’s
Descending Dragon. Were I to purchase it, is the
fact that I have not designed it and would have
someone experienced help me care for it, so as not
to
spoil the design, make me less of an enthusiast. I
think not, and agree with you that it is unfair
that the rules of some competitions preclude the
participation of collectors. I remember a story
of Mr. Kimura congratulating the owner of a Kokufu
award-winning tree that he had prepared on behalf
of the owner.
Regards
Raymon

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Just one more set of quotes:
Hi, Andy, just read your piece "Bonsai Bigotry"
as per your link in reply #3. It is a good piece
of work, and I recommend anyone who has a love of
bonsai to take the time to read it!
Things are slightly different in Europe,
as we do have a number of 'collectors' but most
are outside of what we know as the 'European
Bonsai Scene.' Most artists tend to keep their
clients to themselves to protect their income
stream.... understandable I guess...
I welcome patrons of the 'arts'...
Throughout history they have enabled 'artists' to
live, eat and continue to create great work...
where would Picasso have been, if nobody bought
his paintings? At a push we can all paint.... but
I sure would like to own a Picasso!
So, on this forum... we can all create
bonsai? So, why do we condemn those who chose to
buy the art?
Tony
--------------------------------------------------
Hi, Rob, Yes, Jim Lewis wrote something of an
opposing piece to my column. It's in the archives
under "BTOpinions."
Kind regards, Andy
--------------------------------------------------
Architects don't build their buildings, and
composers don't play all the instruments in their
symphonies. The big picture is what is important.
Mark
--------------------------------------------------

Bonsai is a great art which can and should
be promoted to a higher level in any society by a
determined efforts to get people with means
interested in bonsai. There is little doubt that
wealthy collectors or collectors cum artist helps
to push the level of artistic achievement in
bonsai to a higher level. Japan is a good e.g..
Europe is another. So is Malaysia. I was recently
told that someone tried to buy over a bonsai for
M$250,000 but was refused by the owner. The level
of bonsai artistry in Malaysia has definitely
grown tremendously over the years. I think the
same is the case with Indonesia where there are
quite a number of wealthy people interested in
bonsai. Budi will be able to confirm this.
However, I also believe that bonsai is
also a healthy and great hobby which has and can
improve the quality of life of the average person.
We should not overlook this. Not many people
outside Japan is aware that the average Japanese
perceive bonsai as a hobby for the old. In the
late 70's when I told my Japanese friends that I
was taking up bonsai as a hobby, they laughed at
me. They even refused my request to bring me to
bonsai garden when I visited them. They rather I
go to see the Nishigaiki show.
Over the last few years I have
opportunities to meet young Japanese through my
daughter's school hosting of Japanese exchange
students and the impression I get is that bonsai
is still very much regarded as an old man's hobby.
I may be wrong.
In the West, I see plenty of interested
young blood. Even one of my club in Perth has 3
members under 10 years old.
People should start bonsai with materials
which is within their means, within their level of
experience and level of dedication. In my early
days I have killed many imported Japanese semi
and finished white pine, black pine, azalea.
However I still have a number of tropical water
jasmine which I sowed as seed since I started.
This little experience of mine show the importance
of working with hardy local material for
beginners. I only wished I have bought some of the
Wrightia bonsai which was offered to me in the
80's and which I saw exhibited in KL sometime ago.
That would have been good investment.
That I now can maintain a tropical species
in a Mediterranean climate compared to my killing
of cold climate specie in the tropic shows the
importance of experience and dedication in bonsai.

C J Leo
--------------------------------------------------
This situation is made even more ridiculous when
those who create their own bonsai refuse to - or
are just plain scared to refer to themselves as
artists.
There are people who give more credit to
Mother Nature than themselves and therefore
refused to call themselves artists. Does that make
them bigots? Does repeating "I am an artist" a
hundred times a day make one an artist?
Ernie
--------------------------------------------------
In order for there to be patrons of art,
the art in question has to enter the realm of
mainstream. In other words, people who had no
interest in it, are now deeply curious.
When this happens, the price of said art
depends on mass opinion. Vincent van Gogh painting
furiously, yet died starved and broke. A hundred
years later, his art has reached mainstream and
the prices of his paintings have reached an
outrageous level.
Someone said that they would love to have
a picasso. I ask, Is this because you understand
his art and consider it to be a high point of
art?--or Do you want it because mainstream has
elevated his image?
There is nothing wrong with buying
'finished' bonsai and then paying someone to
maintain it. But there is a big difference when it
comes to understanding the techniques and concepts
it took to create that work of art. With bonsai
there is always a necessity of keeping the tree
alive. This is an art in itself.
Brian
--------------------------------------------------
This brings us full circle. ;-)
Alan



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HI
I think *art* is what produces an emotion.. but something that goes
beyond the superficial and subjective concept of beautiful ,nice
pleasant ,proportionally well done..
there are things that are remarkable but I would not wish to possess ,
some others instead carve a place in my emotional heart.. as some
bonsais do sometimes , or items or paintings or music , or instants of
lived life and this for is what I can call *ART* as they release a
real and steady emotion and the emotion recalls when I think of them/or
see them again after periods of time
( I do art for my pleasure as well as oil painting or crafting things)

Theo

Kitsune Miko wrote:

I am an artist. I do many things, one of them bonsai.
I have been in dicsussions debating whether a digital
image is a "real" photo, especially if manipulated.

So this discussion can be endless.

I would like to start with the question: What is art?

Is art only the things judged to have financial value
or is it the journey one takes to do art?

I think there is such a thing as a bonsai artist. I
have watched Mitsuya (most recently) and others take
marginal or promising material and make it into
something special.

On nature as artist. She makes diamonds as well as
trees. Yet it takes an artisan to cut the gem to show
its brilliance.

Myself, although I am an artist in the general sense
of the word, I am not product oriented, rather I am
experience oriented. I seek no judgement of my
work(s) so I free myself from the need for approval.
I attempt to match no specific criteria.

I also think there is an art to collecting. I viewed
parts of the Smithsonian collections on my recent
vacation. There is an art to choice of placement and
content to make a pleasing exibition.

Kitsune Miko

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"

...And, Bonsai, per se is NOT an art -- I don't care how many time
an insecure person declares that it is.

snip of further ridiculous and erroneous observations
---------------------------

Bonsai is in no way different from painting, music, sculpture or any other
art, but for the medium. That Jim and others here cannot recognize this
simple fact speaks to their limited perception rather than to the insecurity
of those who do understand this fact.

Bonsai as an activity is engaged in for the same reasons that every other
art form is engaged in. Further, just as in painting or sculpture or music,
the bonsai artist seeks to have his/her work evoke a response from viewers
(either self or others). Just as in all other arts with other mediums,
bonsai artists use their medium for self-expression and/or for the
expression of a specific point of view. As in painting and music and
sculpture, bonsai uses line, form, color, balance, and texture to tell a
story or present a meaningful image.

Just as in every art known to humankind, there are some who are adept in the
skills and techniques of bonsai artistry and there are many whose skill and
technique is lacking. Just as in every other art, there are those who seek
to create meaningful work of the highest order and there are those who
simply enjoy the activity as a hobby or pastime. It is a mistake to believe
that because not everyone in the endeavor aims to create works of fine art
that the art form is not an art form.

So, contrary to Jim's observation above, I believe that individual
insecurity is more responsible for the ridiculous claims of those who say
that bonsai is not art than for the words of those who know that it is. But
that's just an opinion.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

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Well, I have to throw my thoughts in on this thread.

First, as far as 'art' or 'artist'. Some people use a very broad brush
when defining the words, some use a very tiny brush. I myself use a fairly
small brush. Some things that I just don't understand are called 'art' (the
exhibit of road kill in a northwestern usa art gallery or the explicit
homosexual photo exhibit that caused such a fuss in the states a few years
ago comes to mind).

I personally, with my small brush, think that there are some very good
artists in bonsai (insert name of your favorite Master here). Mostly,
though, I think we are artisans and craftsmen (and craftswomen) and
enthusiasts. The artisans etc. at their best, can create a good bonsai. The
artist can take that same bonsai and bring it to the great and excellent
level. The debate about what is art and what's not will never end because it
is such a subjective thing.

As a side note, I also think the definition of the word bonsai is painted
with different size brushes. I've heard people say "It's a nice tree in a
pot (big brush), but it's not a 'bonsai' (tiny brush)". I call my trees
'bonsai', but I use a Real Big Brush

This thread started with the topic 'collector or artist'
Again, with the word 'collector' we have different size brushes. I think
everyone who does bonsai is a collector (I think of my trees a collection),
but It seems the context of the word in this thread is aimed at people who
purchase finished 'great' bonsai and either maintain them themselves or pay
someone to do the job. I see nothing wrong with being that sort of
collector.

I think though, that if there is any animosity at all toward this kind of
collector, it's because some (Not all. This is probably one of those areas
where a few give the rest a bad name) of these folks try to take credit for
the great bonsai as if they were responsible for it's design and creation
and greatness, when in reality they are only the owner or 'maintenance man'
Collectors in other areas have pride in owning their collection but their
pride comes from the association (of the collection) with the person who
created the thing(s) in the first place.
You don't see collectors displaying something by a complete unknown as the
centerpiece of their collection. It's the provenance of a piece that gives
it value to honest collectors, not the fact that they own it.
You don't see people scraping Van Goghs signature off a painting and putting
their own in its place or prying the emblem off their rare Rolls Royce and
affixing their own emblem or buying a Gucci handbag and rebranding it.
Someone made a comparison to horse racing. Yes, the owner gets praise and
congratulations for owning the winning horse, but the trainer gets the
credit and as much publicity (if not more) for creating the winning horse.

So, folks, let's continue this debate. Try to do one thing though. If you
haven't got a reasonable argument on a subject, don't resort to calling
things 'stupid' or someone a 'idiot' or ridiculing someone's viewpoint.
Doing that just reduces your credibility.

The above are just my own personal opinions. Others have and are welcome to
their different views. Thank goodness we are not all the same! What a boring
world it would be.

Jay Wilson

Just to throw out an idea.

For the so-called Traditional Painters,which we can define
as those of us who hand-mull our paints,prepare our own
canvas,have had some form of Traditional training.
[But to be frank I am not sure what Traditional training is
as most of the images we paint would probably shock
Titian,Caravaggio or Rubens,the present day images are
that different.]----

I doubt there would be any interest in Bonsai/Tree penjing.

A painter's life isn't really conducive to growing things.I do
have my moments as well.For when your painting hard,there
is little or no time for anything else,nor any real interest/desire.

I am also not sure if there is enough in Bonsai Design or
Philosophy to hold the painter's attention for that long ????
It's not the same level of appeal as say - Bacchus and Ariadne
-Tiziano or The Virgin of the rocks-Da Vinci.

Thin ice skate I here.

I use Tree Penjing as a means to relax the mind,when it is
overworked by oil painting.

I guess these conversations would be better near a waterfall
whilst drinking white tea and eating sesame seed pows.
E-mails always come off way to aggressively in the reading.

Had a great day casting 8k alloys and now I am off to enjoy
some sweet pows with friends amidst the trees.

May Wen Chang send you all yellow single petal roses.
Khaimraj


-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Wilson
To:
Date: 11 October 2003 8:42
Subject: [IBC] Another "art" debate?


Well, I have to throw my thoughts in on this thread.

First, as far as 'art' or 'artist'. Some people use a very broad brush
when defining the words, some use a very tiny brush. I myself use a fairly
small brush. Some things that I just don't understand are called 'art' (the
exhibit of road kill in a northwestern usa art gallery or the explicit
homosexual photo exhibit that caused such a fuss in the states a few years
ago comes to mind).

I personally, with my small brush, think that there are some very good
artists in bonsai (insert name of your favorite Master here). Mostly,
though, I think we are artisans and craftsmen (and craftswomen) and
enthusiasts. The artisans etc. at their best, can create a good bonsai. The
artist can take that same bonsai and bring it to the great and excellent
level. The debate about what is art and what's not will never end because
it
is such a subjective thing.

As a side note, I also think the definition of the word bonsai is painted
with different size brushes. I've heard people say "It's a nice tree in a
pot (big brush), but it's not a 'bonsai' (tiny brush)". I call my trees
'bonsai', but I use a Real Big Brush

This thread started with the topic 'collector or artist'
Again, with the word 'collector' we have different size brushes. I think
everyone who does bonsai is a collector (I think of my trees a collection),
but It seems the context of the word in this thread is aimed at people who
purchase finished 'great' bonsai and either maintain them themselves or pay
someone to do the job. I see nothing wrong with being that sort of
collector.

I think though, that if there is any animosity at all toward this kind of
collector, it's because some (Not all. This is probably one of those areas
where a few give the rest a bad name) of these folks try to take credit for
the great bonsai as if they were responsible for it's design and creation
and greatness, when in reality they are only the owner or 'maintenance man'
Collectors in other areas have pride in owning their collection but their
pride comes from the association (of the collection) with the person who
created the thing(s) in the first place.
You don't see collectors displaying something by a complete unknown as the
centerpiece of their collection. It's the provenance of a piece that gives
it value to honest collectors, not the fact that they own it.
You don't see people scraping Van Goghs signature off a painting and
putting
their own in its place or prying the emblem off their rare Rolls Royce and
affixing their own emblem or buying a Gucci handbag and rebranding it.
Someone made a comparison to horse racing. Yes, the owner gets praise and
congratulations for owning the winning horse, but the trainer gets the
credit and as much publicity (if not more) for creating the winning horse.

So, folks, let's continue this debate. Try to do one thing though. If you
haven't got a reasonable argument on a subject, don't resort to calling
things 'stupid' or someone a 'idiot' or ridiculing someone's viewpoint.
Doing that just reduces your credibility.

The above are just my own personal opinions. Others have and are welcome to
their different views. Thank goodness we are not all the same! What a
boring
world it would be.

Jay Wilson

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Well, I have to throw my thoughts in on this thread.


And very good ones they were. Thanks.


First, as far as 'art' or 'artist'. Some people use a very
broad brush
when defining the words, some use a very tiny brush. I myself
use a fairly
small brush. Some things that I just don't understand are
called 'art' (the
exhibit of road kill in a northwestern usa art gallery or the
explicit
homosexual photo exhibit that caused such a fuss in the states
a few years
ago comes to mind).

I personally, with my small brush, think that there are some
very good
artists in bonsai (insert name of your favorite Master here).
Mostly,
though, I think we are artisans and craftsmen (and
craftswomen) and
enthusiasts. The artisans etc. at their best, can create a
good bonsai. The
artist can take that same bonsai and bring it to the great and
excellent
level. The debate about what is art and what's not will never
end because
it is such a subjective thing.

And, some rather forceful opinions here to the contrary
notwistanding (or something like that ;-), there is absolutely
nothing wrong with bonsai as a craft. Craftsmanship is an
honorable goal -- and throughout history, a craftsman has often
had a much higher staus in the community than the artist -- who
often was considered a community ne'er-do-well (at least until
he/she dies). The crafts -- and their guilds -- played important
roles in the community. (Frankly, I'd rather be an acknowledged
craftsman than hold an MBA -- especially these days. ;-)

snip


This thread started with the topic 'collector or artist'
Again, with the word 'collector' we have different size
brushes. I think
everyone who does bonsai is a collector (I think of my trees a
collection),
but It seems the context of the word in this thread is aimed
at people who
purchase finished 'great' bonsai and either maintain them
themselves or pay
someone to do the job. I see nothing wrong with being that
sort of
collector.

Yes. There are collections and then there are collections --
just as there are collectors of various stripes, too. Anyone
with more than two bonsai can probably claim a "collection." At
the beginning of this year, I had 300 trees: a COLLECTION. I
now have about 75, the rest gathering termits in the woods, or
growing in my garden (the unwanted azaleas and camellias).
That's a more manageable "collection," IMHO.

As I said in one of my dissents in BT Online, I have never bought
a "finished" bonsai and cannot imagine an instance when I would.
To me, much of the enjoyment of bonsai is in the making --
however, good or indifferent the results might be. I also enjoy
learning how the different trees grow and behave. You don't do
that by purchasing someone else's work, then hiring out the
regular maintenance.

I've bought a lot of nursery stuff. I have even bought a couple
of pre-bonsai (a couple of Satsuki that had had a bend or two put
into their trunks and roots pruned at least once).

I do not (and probably cannot) understand the person who buys a
tree (or a dog) and never tries to train it himself. As I said
in another BT Online piece, I wouldn't know what to say to
someone like that (and if you, dear reader, are one of them . . .
.. sorry).

I collect; lots of things: netsuke, Japanese swords, old maps,
prints -- especially Japanese woodblocks -- and books, among
others. But all of them are pretty passive things. They get
dusted occasionally, and I like to read them and about them and
learn about their makers, etc. but they won't change (assuming I
keep the humidity adjusted, the silverfish away, and polish the
blades occasionally). Collecting bonsai -- and hiring out the
upkeep (thus learning little or nothing about the tree) -- is
totally foreign to me.


I think though, that if there is any animosity at all toward
this kind of
collector, it's because some (Not all. This is probably one of
those areas
where a few give the rest a bad name) of these folks try to
take credit for
the great bonsai as if they were responsible for it's design
and creation
and greatness, when in reality they are only the owner or
'maintenance man'
Collectors in other areas have pride in owning their
collection but their
pride comes from the association (of the collection) with the
person who
created the thing(s) in the first place.

I've never run into one of these -- and hope I don't.

You don't see collectors displaying something by a complete
unknown as the
centerpiece of their collection. It's the provenance of a
piece that gives
it value to honest collectors, not the fact that they own it.
You don't see people scraping Van Goghs signature off a
painting and
putting
their own in its place or prying the emblem off their rare
Rolls Royce and
affixing their own emblem or buying a Gucci handbag and
rebranding it.
Someone made a comparison to horse racing. Yes, the owner gets
praise and
congratulations for owning the winning horse, but the trainer
gets the
credit and as much publicity (if not more) for creating the
winning horse.

So, folks, let's continue this debate. Try to do one thing
though. If you
haven't got a reasonable argument on a subject, don't resort
to calling
things 'stupid' or someone a 'idiot' or ridiculing someone's
viewpoint.
Doing that just reduces your credibility.

A-dang-men! So far (mostly) it's been a good-spirited,
un-acrimonious, discussion with only a moderate amount of
sanctimony cropping up. ;-)


The above are just my own personal opinions. Others have and
are welcome to
their different views. Thank goodness we are not all the same!
What a
boring world it would be.

BUT . . . probably a lot more peaceful.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Alas for the
lack of peace!

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
snip
And, some rather forceful opinions here to the contrary
notwistanding (or something like that ;-), there is absolutely
nothing wrong with bonsai as a craft.
snip
-------------------

Why the distinction between art and craft? All art involves craft. You're
right, there is nothing wrong with bonsai as a craft. Being a craft and its
participants using craft in no way interferes with the fact that bonsai is
an art form. Why would you believe that it does?

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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From: "Andy Rutledge"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
snip
And, some rather forceful opinions here to the contrary
notwistanding (or something like that ;-), there is
absolutely
nothing wrong with bonsai as a craft.
snip
-------------------

Why the distinction between art and craft? All art involves
craft. You're
right, there is nothing wrong with bonsai as a craft. Being a
craft and its
participants using craft in no way interferes with the fact
that bonsai is
an art form. Why would you believe that it does?

Well, I don't know how many times I have to say this (and you'll
no doubt say "lots, because you're wrong," to which I have to
reply with a shrug) but I said earlier in this discussion that
in the right hands, bonsai CAN be an art.

But just like all painting is not "art" so all bonsai is not
"art." (You don't -- EVER -- want to see me do a painting!)

As for craft, there's always been a distinction between "art" and
"craft" (but don't ask me to tell you what it is; that what
this -- and many other -- discussion is about). And yes, there
is (can be) craft involved in art -- though true artists can (and
have) created art with very little "craft" knowledge. The
"craft" in art, however, is the technique you learn to make you a
BETTER artist.

The craft in "bonsai art" is learning how to do proper wiring,
learning how the species you are working on behaves under certain
conditions, etc. But knowing those skills does NOT make one an
artist. The craft is teachable. The art isn't (largely).

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Having fun .
.. . even if Andy isn't. ;-)

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Andy Rutledge wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"

...And, Bonsai, per se is NOT an art -- I don't care how many time
an insecure person declares that it is.

snip of further ridiculous and erroneous observations
---------------------------

Bonsai is in no way different from painting, music, sculpture or any other
art, but for the medium. That Jim and others here cannot recognize this
simple fact speaks to their limited perception rather than to the insecurity
of those who do understand this fact.


Andy, I actually agree with you. However, statements about *your* perception of
somebody else's lack of perception or their perceived insecurity do *not* help your
argument, but only undermine it.

Bonsai as an activity is engaged in for the same reasons that every other
art form is engaged in. Further, just as in painting or sculpture or music,
the bonsai artist seeks to have his/her work evoke a response from viewers
(either self or others). Just as in all other arts with other mediums,
bonsai artists use their medium for self-expression and/or for the
expression of a specific point of view. As in painting and music and
sculpture, bonsai uses line, form, color, balance, and texture to tell a
story or present a meaningful image.

Although I can't speak for artists who use other media, I would add that the
difference with bonsai is that the material is living and this makes bonsai
interactive, to use an over-used term. However, other media change with time.
Paintings accumulate layers of grime, statues develop a patina, that sort of
thing. So, even static media change with time and the changes become a part of the
piece of art.

snip

So, contrary to Jim's observation above, I believe that individual
insecurity is more responsible for the ridiculous claims of those who say
that bonsai is not art than for the words of those who know that it is. But
that's just an opinion.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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