[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
A while ago we had a brief discussion of this book. Peter A. was
interested in its allegations of ties between Zen and bonsai which he, after extensive study has failed to discover, and I after a cursory look, tend to agree. Anyway, my local Barnes and Noble had a copy and since the price is reasonably reasonable I bought it. I don't know the ethnicity of the author, Chye Tan, but he lives in The Netherlands and that country has a very long history with S.E. Asia (Indonesia). Anyway, the book opens with 15-16 pages of a "Zen Bonsai" gallery, with a short explanation of the "Zen Qualities" in the caption for each tree. For a massive (and very nice) Ficus religiosa, the "Zen Quality" was: "The sturdy, ribbed trunk is riddled with dimpled depressions and clefts. It displays an imposing grandeur, which signifies righteousness." The pictured bonsai are all quite acceptable specimens; several are very nice. The "Zen Qualities" of a very likeable, slender, upright Chamaecyparis was: "The entrancing, drooping foliage of a weeping tree evokes melancholy as well as enchantment." In a chapter expounding on the relationship of Zen and bonsai, the author notes the amount that Zen "borrowed" (or was given) from Taoist philosophy as it was developing in China. He continues, noting that after Zen Buddhism reached Japan, "(I)t had a profound effect on painting, calligraphy, poetry, and the tea ceremony, bringing with it an emphasis on simplicity and austerity, subtlety, and tranquility. Garden design, ikebana (the art of flower arrangement) and bonsai also evolved under its influence." I have found one other reference to Zen and Bonsai in Beasley's "The Japanese Experience." However, neither this author nor Beasley provide any references for the statement. Anyway, in this book, the Zen references are more in the line of "armchair Zen" than anything particularly philosophical (at least in MY opinion). Is the book worth the $25 I spent on it? I think so. Just. There's more on design and less on the "how-to" basics that are covered endlessly in other books (although how-to isn't ignored here). Since design is less frequently (or well) covered elsewhere in bonsai literature, that makes this book worthwhile. FWIW, _I_ believe that the roots of bonsai (or, rather, decorative trees grown in pots) are much more likely to rest in Taoism than in Buddhism. However, there are so many close ties between Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism and they're all so long ago and so tied up in myth, who can know? Taoism, of course, pre-dates either of the others. Peter, if you ever see the book I would really like to hear your impression. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The Great Tao flows everywhere. Its course can go left or right. The ten thousand things depend on it for growth, and it does not refuse them. - From the "Tao-te Ching" ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Jim Lewis wrote:
A while ago we had a brief discussion of this book. Peter A. was interested in its allegations of ties between Zen and bonsai which he, after extensive study has failed to discover, and I after a cursory look, tend to agree. snip Anyway, in this book, the Zen references are more in the line of "armchair Zen" than anything particularly philosophical (at least in MY opinion) snip FWIW, _I_ believe that the roots of bonsai (or, rather, decorative trees grown in pots) are much more likely to rest in Taoism than in Buddhism. However, there are so many close ties between Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism and they're all so long ago and so tied up in myth, who can know? Taoism, of course, pre-dates either of the others. Peter, if you ever see the book I would really like to hear your impression. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL snip Just to throw my $.02 in. I haven't read the book, although I'm considering buying it. In terms of theorigins of bonsai, I'm interested in this too, in particular the philosophical or religious factors in the art's origin. Having said that, I'm open to the possibility that the first people to take naturally dwarfed trees and put them in pots may have simply done so because they like them, and nothing more than that. It is one thing to state that a particular philosophy or intellectual framework was definitely a root of of bonsai. Since I haven't seen Tan's book I can't say, but I'm perfectly comfortable with anyone applying their own particular mindset to bonsai. It is a way of making it their own, much as I find a lot of connections between bonsai and my own liberal Christian perspective, although bonsai obviously has no historical connections to Christianity. Something that has occurred to me too in terms of bonsai is that it seems that the art in it's more refined state actually came after the re-connection of Japan with the rest of the world, in fact in the last century. So, although we may think of bonsai as originating in the misty past, could we not say that the art as presently practiced both in the West and Japan is really an amalgam of Eastern and Western elements? Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Just to throw my $.02 in. I haven't read the book, although I'm considering buying it. In terms of theorigins of bonsai, I'm interested in this too, in particular the philosophical or religious factors in the art's origin. Having said that, I'm open to the possibility that the first people to take naturally dwarfed trees and put them in pots may have simply done so because they like them, and nothing more than that. Undoubtedly. Let's face it, usually we only see the "significance" in what we do well after the fact; we invent it after the fact, actually. Still, you had to have a specific mindset to carefully dig up a tree and plant it in a pot, so it was likely the intellectuals (literati??) who first took the step. (Assuming af course, that the "roots" of bonsai don't come from plants kept in pots for medicinal purposes -- again by the thinking class of people who may have noticed that the rosemary they kept for a poultice actually looked nice in a pot). snip Something that has occurred to me too in terms of bonsai is that it seems that the art in it's more refined state actually came after the re-connection of Japan with the rest of the world, in fact in the last century. So, although we may think of bonsai as originating in the misty past, could we not say that the art as presently practiced both in the West and Japan is really an amalgam of Eastern and Western elements? As I write this, NPR's Talk of the Nation is talking about the Samurai class in Japan. But no. I don't think there was much "western" in the refinement of bonsai in Japan. Just before and during the arrival of Perry's ships in Tokyo Bay, there suddenly developed both a leisure class and a mercantile class in Japan. Between them, they had leisure time for the arts -- of various kinds, including bonsai. This was the period that bonsai had its first flowering in Japan. Before this it was almost exclusively a hobby of the Diamyo class (dukes and barons, in European terms). Perhaps in the 20th Century, the west has started to influence Japanese bonsai, but I'm not even sure about that. Where's Peter? Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only to the white man was nature a wilderness -- Luther Standing Bear (Ogallala Sioux Chief) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Hi Jim.
The history of bonsai will never be written without some distortion. You noted, FWIW, _I_ believe that the roots of bonsai (or, rather, decorative trees grown in pots) are much more likely to rest in Taoism than in Buddhism. However, there are so many close ties between Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism and they're all so long ago and so tied up in myth, who can know? Taoism, of course, pre-dates either of the others. Daoism doesn't pre-date Confucianism or Buddhism-- the historical founders lived in the same period (crossing the sixth & fifth centuries BCE), though Buddhism didn't arrive in China until later & Zen Buddhism, later still. By the time their ideas influen ced potted tree culture, Confucian moralists & Daoist practicing the Way of Celestial Masters were vying for legitimacy in ancient aristocratic courts. A syncratic mix of ideals promoted by both of these groups (as well as by more philosophical Daoists f ollowing the Zhangzi text assembled by Guo Xiang ~ 300 CE) and their adoption of Buddhist teachings as subsets of their own understanding were related by writers including Tao Yuan Ming (a.k.a., Tao Qian) in the fourth century CE. Chinese authors tend to credit Tao Yuan Ming (b. between 365 & 372, d.427) cultivating chrysanthemums as the first to write about pot cultivation as "penjing" meaning "bonsai." Japanese authors (e.g., Yuji Yoshimura), if they reference him at all, tend t o reference Tao Yuan Ming's potted plants as flower cultivation called "penjing," which was then not the same as a potted tree or landscape scene. Maggie Bickford notes Tao Yuan Ming was the first to relate plum cultivation with scholars, and an ancient p roverb she relates notes that an entire worlds can be seen in a single plum blossom. This isn't what we mean today by "bonsai," but support or negation of Tao Yuan Ming as an early cultivator of landscape allusion using potted plants is easy to draw. He also: 1. wrote the important epic poem _Peach Blossom Spring_ which helped promulgate the idea of Daoist "cave heavens" that is essential to scholar rock appreciation, 2. became acknowledged (including among Japanese literati) as the no-string _qin_ player (who didn't need the encumbrance of notes actually being plucked to 'hear' an instrument's music)-- _qin_ listening is the source of the aesthetic term for "sound/no s ound" that has been applied to suseki aesthetics as "reverberation" or _yoin_, 3. quit 5 civil posts under corrupt administrations thus becoming an early model for pursuing a rustic literati lifestyle as an alternative to pursuing proper Confucian civil service for following generations of scholars. Confucianism was the earliest of these "influences" to gain prominence among China's elite. Buddhism was then introduced to Chinese courts before Daoism became institutionalized (by Zhang ling in the mid 2nd century) & further popularized with the _Zhangz i_ text (assembled in the early 4th century). Zen sect Buddhism enters China later (in the early 6th century). The intertwined history of spiritual pursuit & political legitimacy suggest philosophical trends parrallel to development of bonsai if not partially driving it. An ancient leisurely class could afford to pursue potted plant culture. Tao Yuan Ming compose d simple poems when ornate poetry was fashionable. He mocked himself as a poor & inept scholar struggling to lead the bucolic life of a peasant. He praised Confucian ideals and explored Taoist and Buddhist concepts while expressing contentment in readin g, music, wine and potted chrysanthemums. Best wishes, Chris... C. Cochrane, , Richmond VA USA ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Daoism doesn't pre-date Confucianism or Buddhism-- the historical
founders lived in the same period (crossing the sixth & fifth centuries BCE), though Buddhism didn't arrive in China until later & Zen Buddhism, later still. You are right of course, tho I understand that Lao Tzu was a bit older and had been teaching (confusing?) people for some time when Confucious came on the scene. My reading indicated, BTW, that Confucious was one of those who didn't understand anything that Lao-Tse said. He apparently mentioned his confusion to one of his followers after the two men had met. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only to the white man was nature a wilderness -- Luther Standing Bear (Ogallala Sioux Chief) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Hi Jim.
You report Lao-tzu being a predecessor to (perhaps even teaching) Confucius while I think evidence is mostly contrary to that. You note: ... I understand that Lao Tzu was a bit older and had been teaching (confusing?) people for some time when Confucius came on the scene. Lao-tzu's birth is unknown; Confucius's birth was 551 B.C.E.. I've seen one source credit Lao-tzu as nine years older, but dates are widely spread from 600 B.C.E. forward. Many deny him as an historical figure. Daoist claimed Lao-tzu taught Confucius long after Confucius's death. Daoist also claimed Buddhism was a sect arising from Daoist teaching... :-) Our friend Lynn wrote privately re' Chinese Daoism as my preference for the origin. It truly is not! Daoism took many twists and turns... and its greatest impact on bonsai is perhaps its influence on Japanese literati (especially in the late 18th through the 19th century) who were vying with Japanese nativist learning scholars for dominance in arts and literary pursuits. Daoist influence on bonsai is as largely written in Japanese history as in Chinese history. It is more easily followed in my studies by references to stone/suiseki appreciation that was often shared by the same enthusiasts. My reading indicated, BTW, that Confucius was one of those who didn't understand anything that Lao-Tse said. He apparently mentioned his confusion to one of his followers after the two men had met. I'd appreciate learning more, Jim. Daoist religion leaves me confused, and I too often jump to philosophical Daoism-- the perfected _zhenren_ who who wanders free from the conventions of culture and society as described in the _Zhangzi_. Laotzu's _Dao De Jing_ (admittedly no copy exist from Laotzu's reputed lifetime) notes, "The extensively learned do not really know (Chapter 81)." Is this not a reflecting back on the influential _Analects_ of Confucius (the core of which is also attributed to 2nd gene ration disciples)? One web resource http://www.csudh.edu/phenom_studies/...taoteching.htm notes: Recent philological studies are more inclined to suggest that _Tao Te Ching_ is written perhaps rather in the 4th or the 3rd century B.C. (later than Confucius) and is maybe not written by one author, but from many different origins including certain proverbs which were very likely prevalent around the time. This stance is supported by debate over which _Dao De Jing_ texts are authentic to an early source. The earliest edition now is the Guodian (see www.archaeology.org/9811/newsbriefs/laozi.html & http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...63/104-6315758 -3573561). From the Amazon book review of Henrick's text on the Guodian edition of the _Dao De Jing_: it provides the most conclusive evidence to date that the text was the work of multiple authors and editors over hundreds of years, rather than the achievement of a single individual writing during the time of Confucius. Another http://homepages.utoledo.edu/enelson...jingreview.htm notes in reviewing _Laozi, Dao De Jing: A Philosophical Translation_ by Ames and Hall: ... the emergence of the _Dao De Jing_ as a radical and powerful alternative vision in an epoch-the Warring States Period (403-221 BCE)-of conflict and uncertainty. ... The Chinese cosmology of this period, both Daoist and Confucian, sees all relations as familial. The person is thus inherently constituted in a web of relations in which she has a unique place and position. The primary familial metaphor of _ru_ or Confucian thought is that of father and filial son, but mother and child take precedence in early Daoism (23). This explains the repeated appeals to the feminine (Ddj 5, 10, 28, 61), the maternal (Ddj 1, 20, 25, 28, 51, 52, 59), and the child-like (Ddj 10, 20, 28, 49, 52, 55) in the _Dao De Jing_-- that is, to the creative and fecund, the receptive and affirming, the natural and the spontaneous. Once again, it seems the _Dao De Jing_ offers a response (and an explicit alternative) to the priority of Confucian relationships. In short, the liklihood of Lao-tzu teaching Confucius seems less likely than that _Dao De Jing_ reflects a response to earlier Confucian teaching and influence. FWIW, in Jensen's _ Manufacturing Confucianism: Chinese Traditions & Universal Civilization_, he credits the Jesuits with 'creating' Confucianism. Thus, a case can (and has) been forcefully presented to credit elite literati scholar tradition (_ru_) as se parate from strong influence by Confucius. History sometimes appears up-for-grabs, and bonsai history has been sorely ill-defined. Deborah Koreshoff's book draws more together than most histories available in English, but unfortunately its depth is shallow. I can readily see political correctnes s affecting Hideo Marushima's history regarding modern bonsai in _Classic Bonsai of Japan_. Daoism, Buddhism and folklore as well as Confucianism are important in understanding bonsai culture... also Asian literary and art history. Modern Daoism like the popular philosophical Zen promoted internationally is far removed from the historical reali ty. As you are, I am very anxious to see Peter Aradi's thoughts set down. Where effective action arises from habitual practice, I think Buddhism & bonsai share a perspective unanticipated in Daoism. The practice of bonsai also shares perspective with martial arts practice. I recall the phrase _ichi nyo_ which is translated "on e & inseparable." For Zen's Soto sect founder Dogen, _ichi nyo_ describes 2 of his 7 principles: - 1st principle: _Shu sho ichi nyo_ "Practice (_shugyo_ "rigorous practice"-- including _zazen_) & enlightenment (_satori_ ) are one & inseperable." - 7th principle: _Shin jin (shin?) ichi nyo_ "Body & spirit are one & inseperable." Among martial arts, _ichi nyo_ is noted in: - Taekwando-- _Chi gyo ichi nyo_ "Knowledge & doing are one & inseparable." - Shorinji karate-- _Ken zen ichi nyo_ "Body & mind are one & inseparable." Best wishes, Chris... C. Cochrane, , Richmond VA USA ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 7:00 PM Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux) Daoism doesn't pre-date Confucianism or Buddhism-- the historical founders lived in the same period (crossing the sixth & fifth centuries BCE), though Buddhism didn't arrive in China until later & Zen Buddhism, later still. You are right of course, tho I understand that Lao Tzu was a bit older and had been teaching (confusing?) people for some time when Confucious came on the scene. My reading indicated, BTW, that Confucious was one of those who didn't understand anything that Lao-Tse said. He apparently mentioned his confusion to one of his followers after the two men had met. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only to the white man was nature a wilderness -- Luther Standing Bear (Ogallala Sioux Chief) ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
From: Chris Cochrane
Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux) Hi Jim. (snipped Our friend Lynn wrote privately re' Chinese Daoism as my preference for the origin. It truly is not! Daoism took many twists and turns... and its greatest impact on bonsai is perhaps its influence on Japanese literati (especially in the late 18th through the 19th century) who were vying with Japanese nativist learning scholars for dominance in arts and literary pursuits. Daoist influence on bonsai is as largely written in Japanese history as in Chinese history. It is more easily followed in my studies by references to stone/suiseki appreciation that was often shared by the same enthusiasts. ---------------- Chris and Jim - I have a casual suspect when I hear of anything art related to an era or religion or philosophy. The reason is we study art so often at moments of its change or turbulence. If there is in an era a rebellious or controversial state of a religious or philosophical nature I imagine there are artists quick to find it subject for painting, music,or art as a whole, or at least quick to grab an Effect from it. Taoism, I, in my ignorance think that it is a nature-guided belief system, fairly stable and always seems appealing. Daoism I imagine to be less easy to grasp as steadily, and could have attracted arts for that reason. Sometimes I look for the artists in defining a period before other parts of a culture because they have a history of making some kind of presentation of rebelliousness or innovation when anything is "stirring." I do look upon whatever the literati presented with the most conviction , very firm in some manner. They represent some kind of classicism to me. This is all evidence of my shady scholarship, and my shifty look at history which has so many zooms in its camera. :) Lynn ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
From: Chris Cochrane
Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux) Hi Jim. (snipped Our friend Lynn wrote privately re' Chinese Daoism as my preference for the origin. It truly is not! Daoism took many twists and turns... and its greatest impact on bonsai is perhaps its influence on Japanese literati (especially in the late 18th through the 19th century) who were vying with Japanese nativist learning scholars for dominance in arts and literary pursuits. Daoist influence on bonsai is as largely written in Japanese history as in Chinese history. It is more easily followed in my studies by references to stone/suiseki appreciation that was often shared by the same enthusiasts. ---------------- From Lynn Chris and Jim - I have a casual suspect when I hear of anything art related to an era or religion or philosophy. The reason is we study art so often at moments of its change or turbulence. If there is in an era a rebellious or controversial state of a religious or philosophical nature I imagine there are artists quick to find it subject for painting, music,or art as a whole, or at least quick to grab an Effect from it. Taoism, I, in my ignorance think that it is a nature-guided belief system, fairly stable and always seems appealing. Daoism I imagine to be less easy to grasp as steadily, and could have attracted arts for that reason. Sometimes I look for the artists in defining a period before other parts of a culture because they have a history of making some kind of presentation of rebelliousness or innovation when anything is "stirring." I do look upon whatever the literati presented with the most conviction , very firm in some manner. They represent some kind of classicism to me. This is all evidence of my shady scholarship, and my shifty look at history which has so many zooms in its camera. :) Lynn Well, I got thoroughly (and enjoyably) lost between these two messages. ;-) I am neither a Chinese scholar, nor an expert in philosophy, but I do read, and I just finished a course at Florida State on early Chinese history that spent a lot of time on the early philosophies that had (and continue to have) a strong impact on Chinese life. I've also be doing a good deal of Daoist reading of late. And, I might add, been thoroughly confused and perplexed in the process -- especially the first time through. It is a very helpful philosophy to read when you are having trouble falling asleep. ;-) I had gotten the impression from my class and from brief discussion in some of the Daoist books that there was a larger discrepancy between Lao-Tse's and Confucius's age than 9 years, and that Lao-Tse was an old man when visited by a much younger Confucius. But both are so far back in time that neither is, of a certainty, a real, single person, and may each be a conglomerate of several peripatetic philosophers who may have wandered the Chinese hinterland in the 7th and 6th Centuries BP. Neither had I understood that Daoist writings came so long after Lao-Tse's "death." Though, it is fairly well established that Confucius's words were collected/compiled/? 2 or 3 hundred years after _his_ death. Notwithstanding all this, and straining to pull this topic back to bonsai, it would seem to me that Daoist philosophy is more likely to giver rise to a potted-tree art than the quite pragmatic Confucian. The literati, while arising and thriving in early Confucian China, seem to me to lean more toward Daoist thought than pure Confucian. But that may just be MY "confusion." Anyway, we've beaten this fairly off-topic dead horse to a pulp, and digressed SIGNIFICANTLY from the Zen-ness of bonsai. On that topic, I agree with whoever it was that said, if you want to find Zen in bonsai, have at it. Me? I just find it fun. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Who just bought and installed a new, much larger, monitor and can SEE again! ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Chris:
I was away for most of this thread and missed all, but your last note. Consequently I would rather not enter the discussion in detail. However, since I can't keep my mouth shut, - an old problem of mine, - let me just add that the experiences and readings of this last year reinforced my belief that Buddhism greatly influenced and interacted with Japanese stone appreciation and suiseki, while had only general, and arguably minimal, influence on the aesthetic of bonsai. Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Hi Peter,
Re yours to Chris, Chris: I was away for most of this thread and missed all, but your last note. Consequently I would rather not enter the discussion in detail. Hi Peter: While we hope to hear from Chris I am tempted to say re your msg: However, since I can't keep my mouth shut, - an old problem of mine, - That problem is not yours alone - mind if I share?? :) let me just add that the experiences and readings of this last year reinforced my belief that Buddhism greatly influenced and interacted with Japanese stone appreciation and suiseki, while had only general, and arguably minimal, influence on the aesthetic of bonsai. Cheers. Peter Aradi Peter, I really like the separation you make between an aesthetic of bonsai and an interaction with the stone, suiseki appreciation. I think Chris does this, too. I can see that a great deal of difference exists between these two forms of concentration and interest in the past possibly. I don't know how you arrived at this, but I am guessing that bonsai 's evolving from the planted-plant experience from past ages came from a more pragmatic and less metaphoric basis, while stones have been found in the past to have a much more symbolic and/or imaginative or transcending place in man's interest. I hope you are finding some direction that is re-newing to your search. Lynn Lynn Boyd Zone 7-8, Willamette Valley, Oregon ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Xref: kermit rec.arts.bonsai:70342
Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Boyd" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:42 PM Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Chris, Jim, Lynn, et all.
First of all thank you Chris for the detailed listing of the postings. Interestingly enough during this exchange I was sequestered away in a Zen Buddhist retreat, cut away from TV, radio, newspapers, magazines, telephones, the Internet, etc., I think you get the picture. It was silent meditation and the usual religious practice. It was great. After reading the thread, I ordered the book through Amazon.com. Probably it will arrive after Christmas and will take a day or two to read it. When finished reading it, I will post my comments on the book and the thread for anyone who is still interested in the subject.. Cheers. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Chris, Jim, Lynn, et all.
First of all thank you Chris for the detailed listing of the postings. Interestingly enough during this exchange I was sequestered away in a Zen Buddhist retreat, cut away from TV, radio, newspapers, magazines, telephones, the Internet, etc., I think you get the picture. It was silent meditation and the usual religious practice. It was great. After reading the thread, I ordered the book through Amazon.com. Probably it will arrive after Christmas and will take a day or two to read it. When finished reading it, I will post my comments on the book and the thread for anyone who is still interested in the subject.. I look forward to it with anticipation, Peter. And thanks, too, to Chris . . . who must save everything. ;-) Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - VEGETARIAN: An Indian word meaning "lousy hunter." (Borrowed from a sig by fellow listowner, Scott Peterson) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Marty,
I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Marty,
I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Andy Rutledge wrote:
Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. I love it. Real meat and potatoes stuff. I partly agree to this point, Andy. I have come to find that bonsai is both about us AND trees. When I work on my trees I am working on myself. And my trees. Yes, the trees are the medium, but we have not created the medium. The living material is given to us, and it has limitations as living material. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas I don't think he's saying that, Andy, although I'll let Marty speak for himself. I understood him to be saying that that our humility should be in the presence of living material, in a sense, life itself. BTW if you ever have a chance to see Marty's trees you'll know immediately that he does not feel that "the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing." Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
I could spend 10 pages arguing this point, but our managers would expunge my
input. Suffice it to say that my trees are more important than I am (in our relationship together), and I defer to their wishes at all times. Respectfully yours, Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Rutledge" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux) Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Marty,
I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Marty,
I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Andy Rutledge wrote:
Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. I love it. Real meat and potatoes stuff. I partly agree to this point, Andy. I have come to find that bonsai is both about us AND trees. When I work on my trees I am working on myself. And my trees. Yes, the trees are the medium, but we have not created the medium. The living material is given to us, and it has limitations as living material. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas I don't think he's saying that, Andy, although I'll let Marty speak for himself. I understood him to be saying that that our humility should be in the presence of living material, in a sense, life itself. BTW if you ever have a chance to see Marty's trees you'll know immediately that he does not feel that "the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing." Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Andy Rutledge wrote:
Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. I love it. Real meat and potatoes stuff. I partly agree to this point, Andy. I have come to find that bonsai is both about us AND trees. When I work on my trees I am working on myself. And my trees. Yes, the trees are the medium, but we have not created the medium. The living material is given to us, and it has limitations as living material. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas I don't think he's saying that, Andy, although I'll let Marty speak for himself. I understood him to be saying that that our humility should be in the presence of living material, in a sense, life itself. BTW if you ever have a chance to see Marty's trees you'll know immediately that he does not feel that "the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing." Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
I could spend 10 pages arguing this point, but our managers would expunge my
input. Suffice it to say that my trees are more important than I am (in our relationship together), and I defer to their wishes at all times. Respectfully yours, Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Rutledge" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux) Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
I could spend 10 pages arguing this point, but our managers would expunge my
input. Suffice it to say that my trees are more important than I am (in our relationship together), and I defer to their wishes at all times. Respectfully yours, Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Rutledge" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux) Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Marty,
I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Marty,
I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Marty,
I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Marty,
I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Andy Rutledge wrote:
Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. I love it. Real meat and potatoes stuff. I partly agree to this point, Andy. I have come to find that bonsai is both about us AND trees. When I work on my trees I am working on myself. And my trees. Yes, the trees are the medium, but we have not created the medium. The living material is given to us, and it has limitations as living material. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas I don't think he's saying that, Andy, although I'll let Marty speak for himself. I understood him to be saying that that our humility should be in the presence of living material, in a sense, life itself. BTW if you ever have a chance to see Marty's trees you'll know immediately that he does not feel that "the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing." Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Andy Rutledge wrote:
Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. I love it. Real meat and potatoes stuff. I partly agree to this point, Andy. I have come to find that bonsai is both about us AND trees. When I work on my trees I am working on myself. And my trees. Yes, the trees are the medium, but we have not created the medium. The living material is given to us, and it has limitations as living material. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas I don't think he's saying that, Andy, although I'll let Marty speak for himself. I understood him to be saying that that our humility should be in the presence of living material, in a sense, life itself. BTW if you ever have a chance to see Marty's trees you'll know immediately that he does not feel that "the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing." Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Andy Rutledge wrote:
Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. I love it. Real meat and potatoes stuff. I partly agree to this point, Andy. I have come to find that bonsai is both about us AND trees. When I work on my trees I am working on myself. And my trees. Yes, the trees are the medium, but we have not created the medium. The living material is given to us, and it has limitations as living material. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas I don't think he's saying that, Andy, although I'll let Marty speak for himself. I understood him to be saying that that our humility should be in the presence of living material, in a sense, life itself. BTW if you ever have a chance to see Marty's trees you'll know immediately that he does not feel that "the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing." Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
Andy Rutledge wrote:
Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. I love it. Real meat and potatoes stuff. I partly agree to this point, Andy. I have come to find that bonsai is both about us AND trees. When I work on my trees I am working on myself. And my trees. Yes, the trees are the medium, but we have not created the medium. The living material is given to us, and it has limitations as living material. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas I don't think he's saying that, Andy, although I'll let Marty speak for himself. I understood him to be saying that that our humility should be in the presence of living material, in a sense, life itself. BTW if you ever have a chance to see Marty's trees you'll know immediately that he does not feel that "the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing." Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
I could spend 10 pages arguing this point, but our managers would expunge my
input. Suffice it to say that my trees are more important than I am (in our relationship together), and I defer to their wishes at all times. Respectfully yours, Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Rutledge" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux) Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
I could spend 10 pages arguing this point, but our managers would expunge my
input. Suffice it to say that my trees are more important than I am (in our relationship together), and I defer to their wishes at all times. Respectfully yours, Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Rutledge" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux) Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
I could spend 10 pages arguing this point, but our managers would expunge my
input. Suffice it to say that my trees are more important than I am (in our relationship together), and I defer to their wishes at all times. Respectfully yours, Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Rutledge" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux) Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux)
I could spend 10 pages arguing this point, but our managers would expunge my
input. Suffice it to say that my trees are more important than I am (in our relationship together), and I defer to their wishes at all times. Respectfully yours, Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Rutledge" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: [IBC] "The Spirit of Bonsai design: Combine the Power of Zen and nature" (redux) Marty, I don't agree at all. Bonsai, like most art, is an effort at personification. What we idealize in nature has more to do with our own human quality preferences than merely our idealizations of nature. In other words, bonsai is about "us," rather than about trees. Trees are merely the medium. Your admonishment to approach our design preferences with humility is perhaps out of context. Our humility might best be directed at those who have worked on the tree before us rather than toward the common, average aesthetics of nature. Bonsai is all about obviating averageness and commonness. By your standard, the best bonsai is a tree in a pot to which we've done nothing. Out of context IMO. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com zone 8, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marty Haber" Lynn - it occurs to me that the esoteric split between tree and stone appreciation exposes our ultimate chutzpah. The whole idea of planting trees in pots is our way of saying: "Nature is a hit-and-miss proposition. We will take over and improve upon it. We will show Nature how it should behave." In our Gallery, we're constantly seeing virtuals illustrating members' improvements upon improvements. I'm not intimating that we should quit what we are doing; only that we ought to add a heaping portion of humility to our work. Marty. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Jarbas Godoy ++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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