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#1
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
Other than knowing that one is from China, the other Japan, I appear to be
unable to tell just by looking at it which one is which. I have seen many Penjing (including owning the "world of wonderments"). I have seen many bonsai. What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie identify it? Cheers Nic ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#3
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie identify it? I would say: 1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing. 2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is Penjing. 3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing. Billy on the Florida Space Coast BSF Annual Convention May 28 - 31, 2004 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral, Florida Sponsored by The Bonsai Society of Brevard and the Treasure Coast Bonsai Society http://www.bonsaisocietyofbrevard.org/2004/2004.html ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#4
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie identify it? I would say: 1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing. 2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is Penjing. 3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing. Billy on the Florida Space Coast BSF Annual Convention May 28 - 31, 2004 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral, Florida Sponsored by The Bonsai Society of Brevard and the Treasure Coast Bonsai Society http://www.bonsaisocietyofbrevard.org/2004/2004.html ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#5
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing.
2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is Penjing. 3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing. I beg to differ. Only #1 is true, in the classic sense. Some of us use figurines in what would otherwise be called saikei. If you read Kawamoto's book on saikei, you will find that #2 and #3 are definitely not true. I suggest you go back and read Korashoff. She goes into detail on the difference between Chinese & Japanese styles. At any rate, nowadays the distinction is quite blurred. Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming train." Robert Lowell (1917-1977) |
#6
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie identify it? I would say: 1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing. 2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is Penjing. 3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing. Billy's definitions are good. He is defining Saikei, also (except, perhaps, for the mudmen). Saikei, as the Japanese practice it _usually_ is much "simpler" than the Chinese art -- there aren't so many things going on and, as Billy says, most often the trees are the same. But not always. BUT . . . Penjing also can be individual trees -- what the Japanese call bonsai. The difference here is harder to describe (for me, at least) but -- speaking VERY generally -- the Chinese seem to go more for the odd tree, the one with the tangle of roots, or the one standing on a stilt of roots, or the one with the twisted trunk (note all the gyrations that imported Chinese elms have) and their trees can be a bit unkempt looking to one who is most familiar with Japanese trees. Taper doesn't seem to be as important. Neither is branch placement. Don't get me wrong. Penjing = Bonsai, essentially. Some can be as manicured and as svelte as the classiest Japanese bonsai. I heard at a convention that "penjing" essentially means tray landscape (Ernie?????) and that can include one tree or several, rocks or no rocks, figures or no figures. The Japanese appear to have decided that there is some vague difference between bonsai and saikei. To me, at least, it often isn't clear; we have forest bonsai. Add rocks and it becomes saikei. But we have individual bonsai growing on or over a rock and it still is bonsai. What it all boils down to in the end is that it really doesn't matter what you call your creation. Call them "artichokes" and be done with the terminology question. ;-) Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it should have - Paul Bigelow Sears. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#7
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie identify it? I would say: 1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing. 2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is Penjing. 3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing. Billy's definitions are good. He is defining Saikei, also (except, perhaps, for the mudmen). Saikei, as the Japanese practice it _usually_ is much "simpler" than the Chinese art -- there aren't so many things going on and, as Billy says, most often the trees are the same. But not always. BUT . . . Penjing also can be individual trees -- what the Japanese call bonsai. The difference here is harder to describe (for me, at least) but -- speaking VERY generally -- the Chinese seem to go more for the odd tree, the one with the tangle of roots, or the one standing on a stilt of roots, or the one with the twisted trunk (note all the gyrations that imported Chinese elms have) and their trees can be a bit unkempt looking to one who is most familiar with Japanese trees. Taper doesn't seem to be as important. Neither is branch placement. Don't get me wrong. Penjing = Bonsai, essentially. Some can be as manicured and as svelte as the classiest Japanese bonsai. I heard at a convention that "penjing" essentially means tray landscape (Ernie?????) and that can include one tree or several, rocks or no rocks, figures or no figures. The Japanese appear to have decided that there is some vague difference between bonsai and saikei. To me, at least, it often isn't clear; we have forest bonsai. Add rocks and it becomes saikei. But we have individual bonsai growing on or over a rock and it still is bonsai. What it all boils down to in the end is that it really doesn't matter what you call your creation. Call them "artichokes" and be done with the terminology question. ;-) Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it should have - Paul Bigelow Sears. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#8
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie identify it? I would say: 1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing. 2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is Penjing. 3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing. Billy's definitions are good. He is defining Saikei, also (except, perhaps, for the mudmen). Saikei, as the Japanese practice it _usually_ is much "simpler" than the Chinese art -- there aren't so many things going on and, as Billy says, most often the trees are the same. But not always. BUT . . . Penjing also can be individual trees -- what the Japanese call bonsai. The difference here is harder to describe (for me, at least) but -- speaking VERY generally -- the Chinese seem to go more for the odd tree, the one with the tangle of roots, or the one standing on a stilt of roots, or the one with the twisted trunk (note all the gyrations that imported Chinese elms have) and their trees can be a bit unkempt looking to one who is most familiar with Japanese trees. Taper doesn't seem to be as important. Neither is branch placement. Don't get me wrong. Penjing = Bonsai, essentially. Some can be as manicured and as svelte as the classiest Japanese bonsai. I heard at a convention that "penjing" essentially means tray landscape (Ernie?????) and that can include one tree or several, rocks or no rocks, figures or no figures. The Japanese appear to have decided that there is some vague difference between bonsai and saikei. To me, at least, it often isn't clear; we have forest bonsai. Add rocks and it becomes saikei. But we have individual bonsai growing on or over a rock and it still is bonsai. What it all boils down to in the end is that it really doesn't matter what you call your creation. Call them "artichokes" and be done with the terminology question. ;-) Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it should have - Paul Bigelow Sears. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#9
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie identify it? I would say: 1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing. 2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is Penjing. 3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing. Billy's definitions are good. He is defining Saikei, also (except, perhaps, for the mudmen). Saikei, as the Japanese practice it _usually_ is much "simpler" than the Chinese art -- there aren't so many things going on and, as Billy says, most often the trees are the same. But not always. BUT . . . Penjing also can be individual trees -- what the Japanese call bonsai. The difference here is harder to describe (for me, at least) but -- speaking VERY generally -- the Chinese seem to go more for the odd tree, the one with the tangle of roots, or the one standing on a stilt of roots, or the one with the twisted trunk (note all the gyrations that imported Chinese elms have) and their trees can be a bit unkempt looking to one who is most familiar with Japanese trees. Taper doesn't seem to be as important. Neither is branch placement. Don't get me wrong. Penjing = Bonsai, essentially. Some can be as manicured and as svelte as the classiest Japanese bonsai. I heard at a convention that "penjing" essentially means tray landscape (Ernie?????) and that can include one tree or several, rocks or no rocks, figures or no figures. The Japanese appear to have decided that there is some vague difference between bonsai and saikei. To me, at least, it often isn't clear; we have forest bonsai. Add rocks and it becomes saikei. But we have individual bonsai growing on or over a rock and it still is bonsai. What it all boils down to in the end is that it really doesn't matter what you call your creation. Call them "artichokes" and be done with the terminology question. ;-) Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it should have - Paul Bigelow Sears. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#10
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:13:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie identify it? I would say: 1. if it has figures, mud men, etc. it is Penjing. 2. if it has a lot of landscaping, streams, stones, etc. it is Penjing. 3. if it has a variety of species of different types such as tall trees and shorter shrub like plants it is Penjing. Billy's definitions are good. He is defining Saikei, also (except, perhaps, for the mudmen). Saikei, as the Japanese practice it _usually_ is much "simpler" than the Chinese art -- there aren't so many things going on and, as Billy says, most often the trees are the same. But not always. BUT . . . Penjing also can be individual trees -- what the Japanese call bonsai. The difference here is harder to describe (for me, at least) but -- speaking VERY generally -- the Chinese seem to go more for the odd tree, the one with the tangle of roots, or the one standing on a stilt of roots, or the one with the twisted trunk (note all the gyrations that imported Chinese elms have) and their trees can be a bit unkempt looking to one who is most familiar with Japanese trees. Taper doesn't seem to be as important. Neither is branch placement. Don't get me wrong. Penjing = Bonsai, essentially. Some can be as manicured and as svelte as the classiest Japanese bonsai. I heard at a convention that "penjing" essentially means tray landscape (Ernie?????) and that can include one tree or several, rocks or no rocks, figures or no figures. The Japanese appear to have decided that there is some vague difference between bonsai and saikei. To me, at least, it often isn't clear; we have forest bonsai. Add rocks and it becomes saikei. But we have individual bonsai growing on or over a rock and it still is bonsai. What it all boils down to in the end is that it really doesn't matter what you call your creation. Call them "artichokes" and be done with the terminology question. ;-) Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it should have - Paul Bigelow Sears. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#11
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
Good question,Nic. I believe the essential difference is the national
character of the two countries. The Chinese translate penjing as "artistic potted tree", while the Japanese use "tree in a tray (or pot)". It is almost tantamount to saying that the Japanese feel that one can approach perfection by following a precise set of rules, while the Chinese place their emphasis on artistry and are less constrained by rules. Hence we find less emphasis on taper, one-two-three branch placement, and ramification in penjing - and more such emphasis in bonsai. This is not to say that the Chinese ignore the rules all together. In fact, there is much cross-pollinization between the two cultures. I urge you to compare the photos of Wu Yee-Sun in his "Man Lung Garden Artistic Pot Plants" with those of Mr. Masahiko Kimura in "The Bonsai Art Of Kimura" to see for yourself what I'm trying to say. There is no distinct line of demarkation between the two styles, but there is a definite difference of approach. Therefore, I cannot, in all honesty, give you a three-point answer to your question. We, in the Occidental world, have the privilege of drawing upon both cultures in developing our own artistic standards. Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Steenhout" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 3:10 AM Subject: [IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai Other than knowing that one is from China, the other Japan, I appear to be unable to tell just by looking at it which one is which. I have seen many Penjing (including owning the "world of wonderments"). I have seen many bonsai. What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie identify it? Cheers Nic ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#12
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
Good question,Nic. I believe the essential difference is the national
character of the two countries. The Chinese translate penjing as "artistic potted tree", while the Japanese use "tree in a tray (or pot)". It is almost tantamount to saying that the Japanese feel that one can approach perfection by following a precise set of rules, while the Chinese place their emphasis on artistry and are less constrained by rules. Hence we find less emphasis on taper, one-two-three branch placement, and ramification in penjing - and more such emphasis in bonsai. This is not to say that the Chinese ignore the rules all together. In fact, there is much cross-pollinization between the two cultures. I urge you to compare the photos of Wu Yee-Sun in his "Man Lung Garden Artistic Pot Plants" with those of Mr. Masahiko Kimura in "The Bonsai Art Of Kimura" to see for yourself what I'm trying to say. There is no distinct line of demarkation between the two styles, but there is a definite difference of approach. Therefore, I cannot, in all honesty, give you a three-point answer to your question. We, in the Occidental world, have the privilege of drawing upon both cultures in developing our own artistic standards. Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Steenhout" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 3:10 AM Subject: [IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai Other than knowing that one is from China, the other Japan, I appear to be unable to tell just by looking at it which one is which. I have seen many Penjing (including owning the "world of wonderments"). I have seen many bonsai. What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie identify it? Cheers Nic ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#13
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
Good question,Nic. I believe the essential difference is the national
character of the two countries. The Chinese translate penjing as "artistic potted tree", while the Japanese use "tree in a tray (or pot)". It is almost tantamount to saying that the Japanese feel that one can approach perfection by following a precise set of rules, while the Chinese place their emphasis on artistry and are less constrained by rules. Hence we find less emphasis on taper, one-two-three branch placement, and ramification in penjing - and more such emphasis in bonsai. This is not to say that the Chinese ignore the rules all together. In fact, there is much cross-pollinization between the two cultures. I urge you to compare the photos of Wu Yee-Sun in his "Man Lung Garden Artistic Pot Plants" with those of Mr. Masahiko Kimura in "The Bonsai Art Of Kimura" to see for yourself what I'm trying to say. There is no distinct line of demarkation between the two styles, but there is a definite difference of approach. Therefore, I cannot, in all honesty, give you a three-point answer to your question. We, in the Occidental world, have the privilege of drawing upon both cultures in developing our own artistic standards. Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Steenhout" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 3:10 AM Subject: [IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai Other than knowing that one is from China, the other Japan, I appear to be unable to tell just by looking at it which one is which. I have seen many Penjing (including owning the "world of wonderments"). I have seen many bonsai. What would you say would be the top 3 (concrete?) things that define the difference between Penjing and Bonsai, that would let a relative newbie identify it? Cheers Nic ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#14
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
Penjing and Bonsai have basically the same translation. Penjing being Chinese and Bonsai Japanese. The style differs in the sense that Penjing uses more rock plantings and gives more detail to the bare wood and roots than the Japanese which is more restr
icted to the balance between all the components of a Bonsai tree. e.g trunk branches and pot. this is how i learned about Penjing. I believe there is a sight somewhere on The Shanghai Gardens in Hong Kong. that stresses what is referred to as Penjing. A very impressive display SteveW Long Island NY ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#15
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[IBC] Penjing vs Bonsai
Penjing and Bonsai have basically the same translation. Penjing being Chinese and Bonsai Japanese. The style differs in the sense that Penjing uses more rock plantings and gives more detail to the bare wood and roots than the Japanese which is more restr
icted to the balance between all the components of a Bonsai tree. e.g trunk branches and pot. this is how i learned about Penjing. I believe there is a sight somewhere on The Shanghai Gardens in Hong Kong. that stresses what is referred to as Penjing. A very impressive display SteveW Long Island NY ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Ken Rutledge++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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