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#1
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[IBC] Nire?
I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm.
Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that 'Nire' is a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. It has a very narrow white picotee on the edge of the leaves. It is sold under that name in Japan. Not the same as 'Kimmie' or 'Frosty.' In fact, I have one that fits that description. Can't find any reference to it on the Web. Can anyone clarify? Iris ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#3
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[IBC] Nire?
wrote:
I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm. Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that 'Nire' is a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. It has a very narrow white picotee on the edge of the leaves. It is sold under that name in Japan. Not the same as 'Kimmie' or 'Frosty.' In fact, I have one that fits that description. Can't find any reference to it on the Web. Can anyone clarify? Iris Michael Persiano had an article in Bonsai Today a few years ago on one. Perhaps he could help. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#4
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[IBC] Nire?
At 08:57 AM 7/24/04 -0400, wrote:
I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm. Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that 'Nire' is a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. It has a very narrow white picotee on the edge of the leaves. It is sold under that name in Japan. Not the same as 'Kimmie' or 'Frosty.' In fact, I have one that fits that description. Can't find any reference to it on the Web. Can anyone clarify? Iris Sorry I can't give you any authoritative sources, but I was under the impression that Nire was the species Ulmus parvifolia and the variegated form was 'Fuiri'. This appears to be the parent of 'Frosty' since 'Frosty' frequently reverts to this larger variegated form, so much so, that I gave up trying to grow 'Frosty' and settled on 'Fuiri', which I think is a superior plant for bonsai even if it is larger. This is not an uncommon problem in Japanese naming. Until recently, it appears that Japanese nurseryman did not fully subscribe to Western notions of cultivars, and thus there are generic type names for groups of clones with similar characteristics. I don't have any hard evidence for this, it is just my conclusion after trying to track down many cultivar names as you doing. I wish we had more Japanese members who could shed some light on this situation. Yezo spruce is another good one. It means many things to many different people, and refers to Picea jezoensis, P. glehnii, and P. j. hondoensis, just for starters. The names of the cork bark black pines, Nishiki forms of Pinus thunbergii is another nightmare. Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14 http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#5
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[IBC] Nire?
At 03:47 PM 7/24/04 +0200, Henrik Gistvall wrote:
To my knowledge (wich I´m sure will be corrected) the "nire" stands for a corkbark variety of chinese elm, zelkova and japanese maple. Henrik That's not my understanding. All the plants labeled 'Nire' that I have seen out here have typical creamy exfoliating bark typical of the species Ulmus parvifolia. I think I have tracked down most, if not all the U.p. cork bark cultivars, but am always looking for more. To my knowledge, they a 'Corticosa' (but I bet this is one of those generic names and there is more than one genotype) 'Seiju' 'Yatsubusa' 'Hokkaido' I have several 'Hokkaido' sports that appear to be different genotypes from the above, but I am growing out individuals to see if these are really different and whether the changes are stable. 'Hokkaido' produces a lot of sports. Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14 http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#6
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[IBC] Nire?
Hello Brent,
At 08:57 AM 7/24/04 -0400, wrote: I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm. Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that 'Nire' is a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. Iris On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:32:00 -0400, Brent Walston wrote: Sorry I can't give you any authoritative sources, but I was under the impression that Nire was the species Ulmus parvifolia and the variegated form was 'Fuiri'. This appears to be the parent of 'Frosty' since 'Frosty' frequently reverts to this larger variegated form, so much so, that I gave up trying to grow 'Frosty' and settled on 'Fuiri', which I think is a superior plant for bonsai even if it is larger. snip I checked a number of sources for nire. The first was a comprehensive Japanese - English dictionary that had a simple translation of 'elm'. The second source was Nelson's kanji dictionary where the definition of the kanji for nire was also simply translated as elm. I wish we had more Japanese members who could shed some light on this situation. For a Japanese bonsai source I also checked "The Japanese Art of Miniature Trees and Landscapes" by Yoshimura and Halford. (If you can't trust Yuji Yoshimura, who can you trust?) Under 'nire' in Appendix 3, where the Japanese names are translated and detailed, it says "See 7 Aki-nire, 77 Haru-nire". Not much immediate help but, under Aki-nire, which could be roughly translated as 'autumn elm', the name is translated as "Chinese elm. Ulmus parvifolia Jacq." Other Japanese names given under Aki-nire are nire, ishi-geyaki, and nire-geyaki (a commonly used name in Japanese language texts, translated as elm-zelkova). Under Haru-nire, which could be roughly translated as 'spring elm', the name is translated as "Japanese elm. Ulmus davidiana Planch. var. japonica Nakai; U. campestris Sm. var. japonica Rehd.; U. japonica Sarg." No other Japanese synonyms are given. I have not seen this name in my recent reading of Japanese bonsai books and magazines, but I have seen a few examples of the Japanese elm grown in Zone 3. Its leaves are smaller than U. americana but bigger than those of the locally hardy Siberian elm, U. pumila. Hopefully this helps. Best wishes in bonsai, Les Dowdell who grows Siberian elms in Zone 3. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#7
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[IBC] Nire?
In a message dated 7/24/2004 12:22:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: This is not an uncommon problem in Japanese naming. Until recently, it appears that Japanese nurseryman did not fully subscribe to Western notions of cultivars, and thus there are generic type names for groups of clones with similar characteristics. I don't have any hard evidence for this, it is just my conclusion after trying to track down many cultivar names as you doing. I wish we had more Japanese members who could shed some light on this situation. Brent speaks the truth. My "Nire" Elms were identified by a Japanese Nurseryman--who may very well be on the mark with respect to what they are. Verifying the specific cultivar would undoubtedly be difficult. Hara-nire generally refers to Ulmus davidiana, Aki-nire, Ulmus parvifolia . . . Regardless, we all need to place our horticultural proclivities in focus: if the MATERIAL works for bonsai creation, and we are PLEASED with the artistic creation, such concerns, at least in my mind, become incidental to the final product. );-) Cordially, Michael Persiano Coming off of a 10-hour intensive Bonsai Weekend at the Persiano Studio. hometown.aol.com/iasnob ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#8
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[IBC] Nire?
if the MATERIAL works for bonsai creation, and we are PLEASED with the
artistic creation, such concerns, at least in my mind, become incidental to the final product. Yes, BUT: If a particular cultivar is extremely good or extremely bad for bonsai, we need to communicate this. I recently acquired a J. chinensis 'Old Gold' which I am saving for my club to use as a demo tree. I checked on the Web and found that the last recipient of the Ben Oki award was the same cultivar. This is important information. Also, when we put on a bonsai show, the trees should be labeled correctly. Suppose a viewer sees one labeled Juniperus procumbens 'Nana' when it is really J. squamata 'Prostrata.' He wants to try that very species, but when he goes to buy one he might get something different. We owe it to the public to have our exhibit trees labeled accurately. Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming train." Robert Lowell (1917-1977) |
#9
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[IBC] Nire?
if the MATERIAL works for bonsai creation, and we are PLEASED with the
artistic creation, such concerns, at least in my mind, become incidental to the final product. Yes, BUT: If a particular cultivar is extremely good or extremely bad for bonsai, we need to communicate this. I recently acquired a J. chinensis 'Old Gold' which I am saving for my club to use as a demo tree. I checked on the Web and found that the last recipient of the Ben Oki award was the same cultivar. This is important information. Also, when we put on a bonsai show, the trees should be labeled correctly. Suppose a viewer sees one labeled Juniperus procumbens 'Nana' when it is really J. squamata 'Prostrata.' He wants to try that very species, but when he goes to buy one he might get something different. We owe it to the public to have our exhibit trees labeled accurately. Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming train." Robert Lowell (1917-1977) |
#10
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[IBC] Nire?
To my knowledge (wich I´m sure will be corrected) the "nire" stands for
a corkbark variety of chinese elm, zelkova and japanese maple. Henrik Gistvall, Uppsala, Sweden wrote: I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm. Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that 'Nire' is a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. It has a very narrow white picotee on the edge of the leaves. It is sold under that name in Japan. Not the same as 'Kimmie' or 'Frosty.' In fact, I have one that fits that description. Can't find any reference to it on the Web. Can anyone clarify? Iris ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#11
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[IBC] Nire?
At 08:57 AM 7/24/04 -0400, wrote:
I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm. Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that 'Nire' is a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. It has a very narrow white picotee on the edge of the leaves. It is sold under that name in Japan. Not the same as 'Kimmie' or 'Frosty.' In fact, I have one that fits that description. Can't find any reference to it on the Web. Can anyone clarify? Iris Sorry I can't give you any authoritative sources, but I was under the impression that Nire was the species Ulmus parvifolia and the variegated form was 'Fuiri'. This appears to be the parent of 'Frosty' since 'Frosty' frequently reverts to this larger variegated form, so much so, that I gave up trying to grow 'Frosty' and settled on 'Fuiri', which I think is a superior plant for bonsai even if it is larger. This is not an uncommon problem in Japanese naming. Until recently, it appears that Japanese nurseryman did not fully subscribe to Western notions of cultivars, and thus there are generic type names for groups of clones with similar characteristics. I don't have any hard evidence for this, it is just my conclusion after trying to track down many cultivar names as you doing. I wish we had more Japanese members who could shed some light on this situation. Yezo spruce is another good one. It means many things to many different people, and refers to Picea jezoensis, P. glehnii, and P. j. hondoensis, just for starters. The names of the cork bark black pines, Nishiki forms of Pinus thunbergii is another nightmare. Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14 http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#12
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[IBC] Nire?
At 03:47 PM 7/24/04 +0200, Henrik Gistvall wrote:
To my knowledge (wich I´m sure will be corrected) the "nire" stands for a corkbark variety of chinese elm, zelkova and japanese maple. Henrik That's not my understanding. All the plants labeled 'Nire' that I have seen out here have typical creamy exfoliating bark typical of the species Ulmus parvifolia. I think I have tracked down most, if not all the U.p. cork bark cultivars, but am always looking for more. To my knowledge, they a 'Corticosa' (but I bet this is one of those generic names and there is more than one genotype) 'Seiju' 'Yatsubusa' 'Hokkaido' I have several 'Hokkaido' sports that appear to be different genotypes from the above, but I am growing out individuals to see if these are really different and whether the changes are stable. 'Hokkaido' produces a lot of sports. Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14 http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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