To my knowledge (wich I´m sure will be corrected) the "nire" stands for
a corkbark variety of chinese elm, zelkova and japanese maple.

Henrik Gistvall, Uppsala, Sweden

wrote:

I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm.
Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that 'Nire' is
a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. It has a very narrow white picotee
on the edge of the leaves. It is sold under that name in Japan. Not the same as
'Kimmie' or 'Frosty.' In fact, I have one that fits that description. Can't
find any reference to it on the Web. Can anyone clarify?
Iris

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I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm.
Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that 'Nire' is
a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. It has a very narrow white picotee
on the edge of the leaves. It is sold under that name in Japan. Not the same as
'Kimmie' or 'Frosty.' In fact, I have one that fits that description. Can't
find any reference to it on the Web. Can anyone clarify?
Iris

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To my knowledge (wich I´m sure will be corrected) the "nire" stands for
a corkbark variety of chinese elm, zelkova and japanese maple.

Henrik Gistvall, Uppsala, Sweden

wrote:

I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm.
Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that 'Nire' is
a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. It has a very narrow white picotee
on the edge of the leaves. It is sold under that name in Japan. Not the same as
'Kimmie' or 'Frosty.' In fact, I have one that fits that description. Can't
find any reference to it on the Web. Can anyone clarify?
Iris

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wrote:

I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm.
Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that 'Nire' is
a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. It has a very narrow white picotee
on the edge of the leaves. It is sold under that name in Japan. Not the same as
'Kimmie' or 'Frosty.' In fact, I have one that fits that description. Can't
find any reference to it on the Web. Can anyone clarify?
Iris


Michael Persiano had an article in Bonsai Today a few years ago on one. Perhaps he
could help.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a sunset 37

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At 08:57 AM 7/24/04 -0400, wrote:
I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm.
Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that
'Nire' is
a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. It has a very narrow white picotee
on the edge of the leaves. It is sold under that name in Japan. Not the
same as
'Kimmie' or 'Frosty.' In fact, I have one that fits that description. Can't
find any reference to it on the Web. Can anyone clarify?

Iris

Sorry I can't give you any authoritative sources, but I was under the
impression that Nire was the species Ulmus parvifolia and the variegated
form was 'Fuiri'. This appears to be the parent of 'Frosty' since 'Frosty'
frequently reverts to this larger variegated form, so much so, that I gave
up trying to grow 'Frosty' and settled on 'Fuiri', which I think is a
superior plant for bonsai even if it is larger.

This is not an uncommon problem in Japanese naming. Until recently, it
appears that Japanese nurseryman did not fully subscribe to Western notions
of cultivars, and thus there are generic type names for groups of clones
with similar characteristics. I don't have any hard evidence for this, it
is just my conclusion after trying to track down many cultivar names as you
doing. I wish we had more Japanese members who could shed some light on
this situation.

Yezo spruce is another good one. It means many things to many different
people, and refers to Picea jezoensis, P. glehnii, and P. j. hondoensis,
just for starters. The names of the cork bark black pines, Nishiki forms of
Pinus thunbergii is another nightmare.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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At 03:47 PM 7/24/04 +0200, Henrik Gistvall wrote:
To my knowledge (wich I´m sure will be corrected) the "nire" stands for
a corkbark variety of chinese elm, zelkova and japanese maple.

Henrik

That's not my understanding. All the plants labeled 'Nire' that I have seen
out here have typical creamy exfoliating bark typical of the species Ulmus
parvifolia. I think I have tracked down most, if not all the U.p. cork bark
cultivars, but am always looking for more. To my knowledge, they a

'Corticosa' (but I bet this is one of those generic names and there is more
than one genotype)

'Seiju'
'Yatsubusa'
'Hokkaido'

I have several 'Hokkaido' sports that appear to be different genotypes from
the above, but I am growing out individuals to see if these are really
different and whether the changes are stable. 'Hokkaido' produces a lot of
sports.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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At 08:57 AM 7/24/04 -0400, wrote:
I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm.
Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that
'Nire' is
a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia. It has a very narrow white picotee
on the edge of the leaves. It is sold under that name in Japan. Not the
same as
'Kimmie' or 'Frosty.' In fact, I have one that fits that description. Can't
find any reference to it on the Web. Can anyone clarify?

Iris

Sorry I can't give you any authoritative sources, but I was under the
impression that Nire was the species Ulmus parvifolia and the variegated
form was 'Fuiri'. This appears to be the parent of 'Frosty' since 'Frosty'
frequently reverts to this larger variegated form, so much so, that I gave
up trying to grow 'Frosty' and settled on 'Fuiri', which I think is a
superior plant for bonsai even if it is larger.

This is not an uncommon problem in Japanese naming. Until recently, it
appears that Japanese nurseryman did not fully subscribe to Western notions
of cultivars, and thus there are generic type names for groups of clones
with similar characteristics. I don't have any hard evidence for this, it
is just my conclusion after trying to track down many cultivar names as you
doing. I wish we had more Japanese members who could shed some light on
this situation.

Yezo spruce is another good one. It means many things to many different
people, and refers to Picea jezoensis, P. glehnii, and P. j. hondoensis,
just for starters. The names of the cork bark black pines, Nishiki forms of
Pinus thunbergii is another nightmare.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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************************************************** ******************************
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At 03:47 PM 7/24/04 +0200, Henrik Gistvall wrote:
To my knowledge (wich I´m sure will be corrected) the "nire" stands for
a corkbark variety of chinese elm, zelkova and japanese maple.

Henrik

That's not my understanding. All the plants labeled 'Nire' that I have seen
out here have typical creamy exfoliating bark typical of the species Ulmus
parvifolia. I think I have tracked down most, if not all the U.p. cork bark
cultivars, but am always looking for more. To my knowledge, they a

'Corticosa' (but I bet this is one of those generic names and there is more
than one genotype)

'Seiju'
'Yatsubusa'
'Hokkaido'

I have several 'Hokkaido' sports that appear to be different genotypes from
the above, but I am growing out individuals to see if these are really
different and whether the changes are stable. 'Hokkaido' produces a lot of
sports.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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Hello Brent,

At 08:57 AM 7/24/04 -0400, wrote:
I was under the impression that Nire is simply the Japanese word for elm.
Sometimes I see this name attached to Zelkova. Recently I was told that
'Nire' is a specific cultivar of Ulmus parvifolia.

Iris

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:32:00 -0400, Brent Walston wrote:

Sorry I can't give you any authoritative sources, but I was under the
impression that Nire was the species Ulmus parvifolia and the variegated
form was 'Fuiri'. This appears to be the parent of 'Frosty' since 'Frosty'
frequently reverts to this larger variegated form, so much so, that I gave
up trying to grow 'Frosty' and settled on 'Fuiri', which I think is a
superior plant for bonsai even if it is larger.

snip

I checked a number of sources for nire. The first was a comprehensive
Japanese - English dictionary that had a simple translation of 'elm'.
The second source was Nelson's kanji dictionary where the definition of the
kanji for nire was also simply translated as elm.


I wish we had more Japanese members who could shed some light on
this situation.


For a Japanese bonsai source I also checked "The Japanese Art of
Miniature Trees and Landscapes" by Yoshimura and Halford. (If you can't
trust Yuji Yoshimura, who can you trust?) Under 'nire' in Appendix 3, where
the Japanese names are translated and detailed, it says "See 7 Aki-nire, 77
Haru-nire". Not much immediate help but, under Aki-nire, which could be
roughly translated as 'autumn elm', the name is translated as "Chinese elm.
Ulmus parvifolia Jacq." Other Japanese names given under Aki-nire are nire,
ishi-geyaki, and nire-geyaki (a commonly used name in Japanese language
texts, translated as elm-zelkova).
Under Haru-nire, which could be roughly translated as 'spring elm', the
name is translated as "Japanese elm. Ulmus davidiana Planch. var. japonica
Nakai; U. campestris Sm. var. japonica Rehd.; U. japonica Sarg." No other
Japanese synonyms are given. I have not seen this name in my recent reading
of Japanese bonsai books and magazines, but I have seen a few examples of
the Japanese elm grown in Zone 3. Its leaves are smaller than U. americana
but bigger than those of the locally hardy Siberian elm, U. pumila.
Hopefully this helps.

Best wishes in bonsai,
Les Dowdell
who grows Siberian elms in Zone 3.

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In a message dated 7/24/2004 12:22:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:
This is not an uncommon problem in Japanese naming. Until recently, it
appears that Japanese nurseryman did not fully subscribe to Western notions
of cultivars, and thus there are generic type names for groups of clones
with similar characteristics. I don't have any hard evidence for this, it
is just my conclusion after trying to track down many cultivar names as you
doing. I wish we had more Japanese members who could shed some light on
this situation.
Brent speaks the truth. My "Nire" Elms were identified by a Japanese
Nurseryman--who may very well be on the mark with respect to what they are.
Verifying the specific cultivar would undoubtedly be difficult. Hara-nire generally
refers to Ulmus davidiana, Aki-nire, Ulmus parvifolia . . .

Regardless, we all need to place our horticultural proclivities in focus: if
the MATERIAL works for bonsai creation, and we are PLEASED with the artistic
creation, such concerns, at least in my mind, become incidental to the final
product. );-)

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
Coming off of a 10-hour intensive Bonsai Weekend at the Persiano Studio.
hometown.aol.com/iasnob

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if the MATERIAL works for bonsai creation, and we are PLEASED with the
artistic creation, such concerns, at least in my mind, become incidental to the
final product.

Yes, BUT:
If a particular cultivar is extremely good or extremely bad for bonsai, we need
to communicate this. I recently acquired a J. chinensis 'Old Gold' which I am
saving for my club to use as a demo tree. I checked on the Web and found that
the last recipient of the Ben Oki award was the same cultivar. This is
important information.
Also, when we put on a bonsai show, the trees should be labeled correctly.
Suppose a viewer sees one labeled Juniperus procumbens 'Nana' when it is really
J. squamata 'Prostrata.' He wants to try that very species, but when he goes to
buy one he might get something different. We owe it to the public to have our
exhibit trees labeled accurately.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

if the MATERIAL works for bonsai creation, and we are PLEASED with the
artistic creation, such concerns, at least in my mind, become incidental to the
final product.

Yes, BUT:
If a particular cultivar is extremely good or extremely bad for bonsai, we need
to communicate this. I recently acquired a J. chinensis 'Old Gold' which I am
saving for my club to use as a demo tree. I checked on the Web and found that
the last recipient of the Ben Oki award was the same cultivar. This is
important information.
Also, when we put on a bonsai show, the trees should be labeled correctly.
Suppose a viewer sees one labeled Juniperus procumbens 'Nana' when it is really
J. squamata 'Prostrata.' He wants to try that very species, but when he goes to
buy one he might get something different. We owe it to the public to have our
exhibit trees labeled accurately.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)