composted pine bark
I have fairly often read in this forum about people using composted pine
bark as part of their soil mix, which leads me to ask how exactly does one compost pine bark? Is it the same as composting yard and kitchen waste? Do you keep it dark and moist and turn it regularly? Or is composted pine bark a product you can purchase in the same way regular gardeners purchase composted steer manure? And while we are on the subject, I cannot find pine bark locally but have purchased something called orchid bark which, after a few phone calls to the company that bags it and ships it to the local garden centres, I have been informed is all hemlock. If it was fatal for Socrates, is hemlock OK for my cryptomeria? Les Linfoot New Westminster, BC, Canada Zone 8 |
composted pine bark
"Les linfoot" wrote in message ... If it was fatal for Socrates, is hemlock OK for my cryptomeria? It's not the same hemlock. Not even close. The hemlock Socrates drank was Conium maculatum (http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/conium.html ). "Your" hemlock is a tree of genus Tsuga (http://www.botanik.uni-bonn.de/conifers/pi/ts/ ). I think it's bark would be OK for your cryptomeria. |
composted pine bark
I cannot find pine bark locally but have purchased something called orchid
bark which, after a few phone calls to the company that bags it and ships it to the local garden centres, I have been informed is all hemlock. If it was fatal for Socrates, is hemlock OK for my cryptomeria? Socrates' poison hemlock was an entirely different plant, a member of the Apiaceae. Hemlock bark is from Tsuga canadensis, Canadian hemlock (or another member of the same genus), a conifer. In this country we use Douglas fir bark, a byproduct of the plywood industry. If it is safe for orchid roots, it is safe for bonsai. However, how fine is it ground? I have found that the finest fir bark available is only suitable for conifer mix. I gather that the finely ground pine bark necessary for regular mix is only available in Florida. Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming train." Robert Lowell (1917-1977) |
composted pine bark
In article ,
"Luke Tulkas" wrote: It's not the same hemlock. Not even close. The hemlock Socrates drank was Conium maculatum (http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/conium.html ). "Your" hemlock is a tree of genus Tsuga (http://www.botanik.uni-bonn.de/conifers/pi/ts/ ). I think it's bark would be OK for your cryptomeria. And Iris Cohen wrote: Socrates' poison hemlock was an entirely different plant, a member of the Apiaceae. Hemlock bark is from Tsuga canadensis, Canadian hemlock (or another member of the same genus), a conifer. In this country we use Douglas fir bark, a byproduct of the plywood industry. And I am very impressed. I mean I knew that it probably wasn't tsuga canadensis or heterophylla and I was really just being facetious, but I am impressed that people actually know what kind of hemlock shooter the old Greek knocked back. And while i am in reply mode... Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote: The major cause of soil collapse is loss of particle size due to _composting_ of the organic portion. By using composted bark, you are using a material that already has one foot in the grave. But, Brent, is there not some nutritional value to be gained through the composting process? I know that when my wife composts kitchen waste, etc. for her garden, she does it in order to add more than just (for lack of a better word) fibre to the soil. It works like a slow release organic fertilizer for her. Les Linfoot New Westminster, BC, Canada Zone 8 |
[IBC] composted pine bark
And while i am in reply mode... Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote: The major cause of soil collapse is loss of particle size due to _composting_ of the organic portion. By using composted bark, you are using a material that already has one foot in the grave. But, Brent, is there not some nutritional value to be gained through the composting process? I know that when my wife composts kitchen waste, etc. for her garden, she does it in order to add more than just (for lack of a better word) fibre to the soil. It works like a slow release organic fertilizer for her. The short answer is: yes. But! The actual NUTRITIONAL value of compost is quite small, even for manure compost. (Manures themselves have a small nutritional value -- for instance, 1.1-0.8-0.5 for chicken manure, the most "potent" of the manures. The main value of compost in the garden is adding "tilth" to the soil. Tilth is one of those hard-to-define terms, but basically it means making hard-clay garden (or field) soil permeable, or in places like south Florida to make very sandy soil hold water for a bit longer. Our bonsai soil -- large grains and inorganic -- is 100% permeable already. Adding compost to this mix clogs up the pres between soil grains and makes the soil hold more water than it should and for longer periods. The result with many trees will be root rot -- and death. For bonsai, drainage is the MOST important factor in the soil. Usually the soils we use have absolutely NO nutritional value. They are, in fact, soil-less. We supply nutrients in other ways. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests are like genealogists: We know our roots! ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] composted pine bark
Iris Cohen wrote:
Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote: The major cause of soil collapse is loss of particle size due to _composting_ of the organic portion. By using composted bark, you are using a material that already has one foot in the grave. I'm a little puzzled at this. Fatal soil compaction results from using organic matter that is too finely ground or too soft, like peat moss. The pine bark that is generally used in commercial bonsai soil, like Hollow Creek Farms, is only partially composted. This is to prevent the problem of bacteria in fresh bark using too much nitrogen. Also, if you repot on a regular basis, say every two or three years, the organic matter won't have turned to mush that fast. Another cause of premature soil collapse is using an inadequately fired clay component, like cat litter. That is why we keep emphasizing the need to use a high fired product like Turface. Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming train." Robert Lowell (1917-1977) I guess I'm as puzzled as Iris. I have begun to pot my deciduous trees in 2/3 -1/3 organic and inorganic soil, the organic being a combination of pine or fir bark, not composted, and my own compost. The inorganic is mostly turface and some fine gravel. It would seem that with regular repotting, as Iris points out, the soil compaction will not be a problem. If a person were to wait too long, like 4-5 years or more, then I could see it being a problem. And, of course, the climate is all-important. My soil mix would not work for someone elsewhere. I've even changed my mix moving from Maine to here in southern NY state, accounting for hotter summers. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
[IBC] composted pine bark
Iris Cohen wrote:
Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote: The major cause of soil collapse is loss of particle size due to _composting_ of the organic portion. By using composted bark, you are using a material that already has one foot in the grave. I'm a little puzzled at this. Fatal soil compaction results from using organic matter that is too finely ground or too soft, like peat moss. The pine bark that is generally used in commercial bonsai soil, like Hollow Creek Farms, is only partially composted. This is to prevent the problem of bacteria in fresh bark using too much nitrogen. Iris I have commented extensively in the past about the phenomenon of 'nitrogen lockup'. Briefly, it is of no concern to us IF, we use stable organic materials such as bark. The amount of nitrogen temporarily locked up by micoorganisms in a good soilless mix is miniscule, and completely overcome by any sensible fertilizer program. Also, if you repot on a regular basis, say every two or three years, the organic matter won't have turned to mush that fast. True, but there are those of us who don't get to every plant every two years, and there are sometimes problems with plants that are growing too slowly, or in pots that are too large for the plants to adequately root colonize the volume in a reasonable period of time. Another cause of premature soil collapse is using an inadequately fired clay component, like cat litter. That is why we keep emphasizing the need to use a high fired product like Turface. Absolutely correct. Iris, Craig added: I guess I'm as puzzled as Iris. I have begun to pot my deciduous trees in 2/3 -1/3 organic and inorganic soil, the organic being a combination of pine or fir bark, not composted, and my own compost. The inorganic is mostly turface and some fine gravel. It would seem that with regular repotting, as Iris points out, the soil compaction will not be a problem. If a person were to wait too long, like 4-5 years or more, then I could see it being a problem. Exactly, and that is what happens. In a slow growing environment, even three years can be a problem. I'm not arguing that you _can't_ use composted materials in your soil, of course you can. But you do have to be aware that you are _starting_ with materials that are already well on the road to particle degradation without any good reason that I can see. Given that, why not use fresh bark that will last longer? Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14 http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Chris Cochrane++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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