I have fairly often read in this forum about people using composted pine
bark as part of their soil mix, which leads me to ask how exactly does
one compost pine bark? Is it the same as composting yard and kitchen
waste? Do you keep it dark and moist and turn it regularly? Or is
composted pine bark a product you can purchase in the same way regular
gardeners purchase composted steer manure?

And while we are on the subject, I cannot find pine bark locally but
have purchased something called orchid bark which, after a few phone
calls to the company that bags it and ships it to the local garden
centres, I have been informed is all hemlock. If it was fatal for
Socrates, is hemlock OK for my cryptomeria?

Les Linfoot
New Westminster, BC, Canada
Zone 8

"Les linfoot" wrote in message
...
If it was fatal for
Socrates, is hemlock OK for my cryptomeria?

It's not the same hemlock. Not even close. The hemlock Socrates drank was
Conium maculatum (http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/conium.html ). "Your"
hemlock is a tree of genus Tsuga
(http://www.botanik.uni-bonn.de/conifers/pi/ts/ ). I think it's bark would
be OK for your cryptomeria.

I cannot find pine bark locally but have purchased something called orchid
bark which, after a few phone calls to the company that bags it and ships it to
the local garden centres, I have been informed is all hemlock. If it was fatal
for Socrates, is hemlock OK for my cryptomeria?

Socrates' poison hemlock was an entirely different plant, a member of the
Apiaceae. Hemlock bark is from Tsuga canadensis, Canadian hemlock (or another
member of the same genus), a conifer. In this country we use Douglas fir bark,
a byproduct of the plywood industry. If it is safe for orchid roots, it is safe
for bonsai. However, how fine is it ground? I have found that the finest fir
bark available is only suitable for conifer mix. I gather that the finely
ground pine bark necessary for regular mix is only available in Florida.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

In article ,
"Luke Tulkas" wrote:

It's not the same hemlock. Not even close. The hemlock Socrates drank was
Conium maculatum (http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/conium.html ). "Your"
hemlock is a tree of genus Tsuga
(http://www.botanik.uni-bonn.de/conifers/pi/ts/ ). I think it's bark would
be OK for your cryptomeria.


And Iris Cohen wrote:
Socrates' poison hemlock was an entirely different plant, a member of the
Apiaceae. Hemlock bark is from Tsuga canadensis, Canadian hemlock (or another
member of the same genus), a conifer. In this country we use Douglas fir bark,
a byproduct of the plywood industry.

And I am very impressed. I mean I knew that it probably wasn't tsuga
canadensis or heterophylla and I was really just being facetious, but I
am impressed that people actually know what kind of hemlock shooter the
old Greek knocked back.

And while i am in reply mode...

Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:
The major cause of soil collapse is
loss of particle size due to _composting_ of the organic portion. By
using composted bark, you are using a material that already has one
foot in the grave.

But, Brent, is there not some nutritional value to be gained through the
composting process? I know that when my wife composts kitchen waste,
etc. for her garden, she does it in order to add more than just (for
lack of a better word) fibre to the soil. It works like a slow release
organic fertilizer for her.

Les Linfoot
New Westminster, BC, Canada
Zone 8

And while i am in reply mode...

Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:
The major cause of soil collapse is
loss of particle size due to _composting_ of the organic
portion. By
using composted bark, you are using a material that already
has one
foot in the grave.

But, Brent, is there not some nutritional value to be gained
through the
composting process? I know that when my wife composts kitchen
waste,
etc. for her garden, she does it in order to add more than just
(for
lack of a better word) fibre to the soil. It works like a slow
release
organic fertilizer for her.


The short answer is: yes.

But!

The actual NUTRITIONAL value of compost is quite small, even for
manure compost. (Manures themselves have a small nutritional
value -- for instance, 1.1-0.8-0.5 for chicken manure, the most
"potent" of the manures.

The main value of compost in the garden is adding "tilth" to the
soil. Tilth is one of those hard-to-define terms, but basically
it means making hard-clay garden (or field) soil permeable, or in
places like south Florida to make very sandy soil hold water for
a bit longer.

Our bonsai soil -- large grains and inorganic -- is 100%
permeable already.

Adding compost to this mix clogs up the pres between soil grains
and makes the soil hold more water than it should and for longer
periods. The result with many trees will be root rot -- and
death. For bonsai, drainage is the MOST important factor in the
soil. Usually the soils we use have absolutely NO nutritional
value. They are, in fact, soil-less. We supply nutrients in
other ways.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests
are like genealogists: We know our roots!

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Iris Cohen wrote:

Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:
The major cause of soil collapse is loss of particle size due to _composting_
of the organic portion. By using composted bark, you are using a material that
already has one foot in the grave.

I'm a little puzzled at this. Fatal soil compaction results from using organic
matter that is too finely ground or too soft, like peat moss. The pine bark
that is generally used in commercial bonsai soil, like Hollow Creek Farms, is
only partially composted. This is to prevent the problem of bacteria in fresh
bark using too much nitrogen.
Also, if you repot on a regular basis, say every two or three years, the
organic matter won't have turned to mush that fast. Another cause of premature
soil collapse is using an inadequately fired clay component, like cat litter.
That is why we keep emphasizing the need to use a high fired product like
Turface.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

I guess I'm as puzzled as Iris. I have begun to pot my deciduous trees in 2/3 -1/3
organic and inorganic soil, the organic being a combination of pine or fir bark,
not composted, and my own compost. The inorganic is mostly turface and some fine
gravel. It would seem that with regular repotting, as Iris points out, the soil
compaction will not be a problem. If a person were to wait too long, like 4-5
years or more, then I could see it being a problem.

And, of course, the climate is all-important. My soil mix would not work for
someone elsewhere. I've even changed my mix moving from Maine to here in southern
NY state, accounting for hotter summers.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a sunset 37

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Iris Cohen wrote:

Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks wrote:
The major cause of soil collapse is loss of particle size due to
_composting_
of the organic portion. By using composted bark, you are using a
material that
already has one foot in the grave.

I'm a little puzzled at this. Fatal soil compaction results from using
organic
matter that is too finely ground or too soft, like peat moss. The pine bark
that is generally used in commercial bonsai soil, like Hollow Creek
Farms, is
only partially composted. This is to prevent the problem of bacteria in
fresh
bark using too much nitrogen.

Iris

I have commented extensively in the past about the phenomenon of 'nitrogen
lockup'. Briefly, it is of no concern to us IF, we use stable organic
materials such as bark. The amount of nitrogen temporarily locked up by
micoorganisms in a good soilless mix is miniscule, and completely overcome
by any sensible fertilizer program.

Also, if you repot on a regular basis, say every two or three years, the
organic matter won't have turned to mush that fast.

True, but there are those of us who don't get to every plant every two
years, and there are sometimes problems with plants that are growing too
slowly, or in pots that are too large for the plants to adequately root
colonize the volume in a reasonable period of time.

Another cause of premature
soil collapse is using an inadequately fired clay component, like cat
litter.
That is why we keep emphasizing the need to use a high fired product like
Turface.

Absolutely correct.

Iris,

Craig added:


I guess I'm as puzzled as Iris. I have begun to pot my deciduous trees in
2/3 -1/3
organic and inorganic soil, the organic being a combination of pine or fir
bark,
not composted, and my own compost. The inorganic is mostly turface and
some fine
gravel. It would seem that with regular repotting, as Iris points out,
the soil
compaction will not be a problem. If a person were to wait too long, like 4-5
years or more, then I could see it being a problem.

Exactly, and that is what happens. In a slow growing environment, even
three years can be a problem.

I'm not arguing that you _can't_ use composted materials in your soil, of
course you can. But you do have to be aware that you are _starting_ with
materials that are already well on the road to particle degradation without
any good reason that I can see. Given that, why not use fresh bark that
will last longer?


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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