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In a message dated 12/11/2004 11:03:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: I have been given a Bonsai tree called Ulmus. Is this an indoor or outdoor tree? An opening caveat. I have heard that importing Elms into the UK is banned. Ulmus is the species name for all Elms, and they are outdoor trees, although in colder climates they will need protection of their roots in a pot. A common Elm used in Bonsai is the Chinese Elm, Ulmus parvifolia. There are a lot of cultivars of this Elm with very small leaves. In colder areas the Chinese Elms will be deciduous (lose their leaves in winter) but in warmer areas, such as Florida some will hold their leaves all year. It always helps us to know where you are geographically. Billy on the Florida Space Coast ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
In a message dated 12/11/2004 8:55:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
writes: In colder areas the Chinese Elms will be deciduous (lose their leaves in winter) but in warmer areas, such as Florida some will hold their leaves all year. I'm glad you raised that point. I live in Southern California, and I have some elms, as well as liquidambar, that will do just that. Many books state that they need the cold, and a dormant period to rest, and one should defoliate if they do not drop by late autumn. On the few occassions that I have removed leaves, they come right back. At any rate, the trees do just fine without this dormant period. Do you think that perhaps these warm climate elms have adapted and no longer require the dormant period? What is the prevailing wisdom? Thanks, Vicky ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
In a message dated 12/11/2004 8:55:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
writes: In colder areas the Chinese Elms will be deciduous (lose their leaves in winter) but in warmer areas, such as Florida some will hold their leaves all year. I'm glad you raised that point. I live in Southern California, and I have some elms, as well as liquidambar, that will do just that. Many books state that they need the cold, and a dormant period to rest, and one should defoliate if they do not drop by late autumn. On the few occassions that I have removed leaves, they come right back. At any rate, the trees do just fine without this dormant period. Do you think that perhaps these warm climate elms have adapted and no longer require the dormant period? What is the prevailing wisdom? Thanks, Vicky ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
In a message dated 12/12/2004 3:30:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: Do you think that perhaps these warm climate elms have adapted and no longer require the dormant period? What is the prevailing wisdom? Thanks, Vicky I think they require less of a dormant period. I am reminded of the Israeli apples, Enshimer (?) and Anna. Billy on the Florida Space Coast ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
In a message dated 12/12/2004 3:30:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: Do you think that perhaps these warm climate elms have adapted and no longer require the dormant period? What is the prevailing wisdom? Thanks, Vicky I think they require less of a dormant period. I am reminded of the Israeli apples, Enshimer (?) and Anna. Billy on the Florida Space Coast ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On 12 Dec 2004 at 3:29, Vicky Estrella wrote:
In a message dated 12/11/2004 8:55:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes: In colder areas the Chinese Elms will be deciduous (lose their leaves in winter) but in warmer areas, such as Florida some will hold their leaves all year. I'm glad you raised that point. I live in Southern California, and I have some elms, as well as liquidambar, that will do just that. Many books state that they need the cold, and a dormant period to rest, and one should defoliate if they do not drop by late autumn. On the few occassions that I have removed leaves, they come right back. At any rate, the trees do just fine without this dormant period. Do you think that perhaps these warm climate elms have adapted and no longer require the dormant period? What is the prevailing wisdom? Thanks, Vicky My opinion -- I doubt anyone has done (or will do) any controlled studies on this: I don't know that we have a long enough history to know. Elms, as a Genus, are deciduous trees. Chinese elm is hardy between zone 4-9 (and probably 10). Their leaves are "persistent" and tend to linger on the tree longer than other species. It gets pretty cold in zone 4, and from what I read and from what people tell me, the elms lose their leaves in early to mid fall (Octoberish) up there. Down here (zone 8), elms in the ground may have leaves all year long, but the trees are certainly thinner (more sparsely leafed) by January and February, and some will be almost bare. Elms in pots (at least MY elms in pots, which get absolutely no winter protection) usually are bare by January, when the average daily temperature here is in the upper 40s, and a.m. lows are in the upper freezing zones. In the ground, southern (zone 8 & up) Chinese elms probably never lose their leaves all at once, but do it in bits and drabs all year, but more heavily in the colder months (and more importantly, those months with shorter days). I doubt that American bonsaiests have enough experience (time) with these trees in pots to know. Nor do they have any idea of the genetic background of a tree they have in their possession -- whether it is one with genes adapted to colder climes, or one that always came from the south. "Adaptation" (especially in trees) isn't likely to be something that happens in the lifetime of a human animal. I'd be willing to bet, however, that a Chinese elm that spends its life indoors will NOT live as long as one that lives outside for all (or most) of the year and gets at least a touch of cooler weather. FWIW Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On 12 Dec 2004 at 3:29, Vicky Estrella wrote:
In a message dated 12/11/2004 8:55:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes: In colder areas the Chinese Elms will be deciduous (lose their leaves in winter) but in warmer areas, such as Florida some will hold their leaves all year. I'm glad you raised that point. I live in Southern California, and I have some elms, as well as liquidambar, that will do just that. Many books state that they need the cold, and a dormant period to rest, and one should defoliate if they do not drop by late autumn. On the few occassions that I have removed leaves, they come right back. At any rate, the trees do just fine without this dormant period. Do you think that perhaps these warm climate elms have adapted and no longer require the dormant period? What is the prevailing wisdom? Thanks, Vicky My opinion -- I doubt anyone has done (or will do) any controlled studies on this: I don't know that we have a long enough history to know. Elms, as a Genus, are deciduous trees. Chinese elm is hardy between zone 4-9 (and probably 10). Their leaves are "persistent" and tend to linger on the tree longer than other species. It gets pretty cold in zone 4, and from what I read and from what people tell me, the elms lose their leaves in early to mid fall (Octoberish) up there. Down here (zone 8), elms in the ground may have leaves all year long, but the trees are certainly thinner (more sparsely leafed) by January and February, and some will be almost bare. Elms in pots (at least MY elms in pots, which get absolutely no winter protection) usually are bare by January, when the average daily temperature here is in the upper 40s, and a.m. lows are in the upper freezing zones. In the ground, southern (zone 8 & up) Chinese elms probably never lose their leaves all at once, but do it in bits and drabs all year, but more heavily in the colder months (and more importantly, those months with shorter days). I doubt that American bonsaiests have enough experience (time) with these trees in pots to know. Nor do they have any idea of the genetic background of a tree they have in their possession -- whether it is one with genes adapted to colder climes, or one that always came from the south. "Adaptation" (especially in trees) isn't likely to be something that happens in the lifetime of a human animal. I'd be willing to bet, however, that a Chinese elm that spends its life indoors will NOT live as long as one that lives outside for all (or most) of the year and gets at least a touch of cooler weather. FWIW Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I am reminded of the Israeli apples, Enshimer (?) and Anna.
The Israeli apple cultivars, like Ein Shemer (sic) and their descendants, still require something of a dormant period. I have never heard of any apples that grow in a tropical area, like southern Florida. The achievement of Ein Shemer is that it requires fewer chilling hours during the winter in order to bloom and set fruit. It was developed for northern Israel, & is very successful in our southern states. The following explanation refers to peach trees, but the principle is the same for apples & other hardy fruit trees. Peach trees are deciduous and drop their leaves in the Fall and go into a developmental state known as dormancy. As the winter progresses the trees go into another state known as rest, during which they cannot grow even if environmental conditions are favorable for tree growth. Exposure to chilling temperatures is necessary to overcome this period of rest, after which normal bud break and growth can begin once growing conditions are favorable. The minimal necessary duration of chilling length for any particular variety is known as the chilling requirement for that variety. Temperatures effective in satisfying the chilling requirement normally range from 32 F to 50 F, with the optimal temperature being approximately 45 F. Do you think that perhaps these warm climate elms have adapted and no longer require the dormant period? I would like to know if temperate trees in southern California are capable of blooming & fruiting. It is not an issue with elms & sweetgum, but what about bonsai crabapple? Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra |
I am reminded of the Israeli apples, Enshimer (?) and Anna.
The Israeli apple cultivars, like Ein Shemer (sic) and their descendants, still require something of a dormant period. I have never heard of any apples that grow in a tropical area, like southern Florida. The achievement of Ein Shemer is that it requires fewer chilling hours during the winter in order to bloom and set fruit. It was developed for northern Israel, & is very successful in our southern states. The following explanation refers to peach trees, but the principle is the same for apples & other hardy fruit trees. Peach trees are deciduous and drop their leaves in the Fall and go into a developmental state known as dormancy. As the winter progresses the trees go into another state known as rest, during which they cannot grow even if environmental conditions are favorable for tree growth. Exposure to chilling temperatures is necessary to overcome this period of rest, after which normal bud break and growth can begin once growing conditions are favorable. The minimal necessary duration of chilling length for any particular variety is known as the chilling requirement for that variety. Temperatures effective in satisfying the chilling requirement normally range from 32 F to 50 F, with the optimal temperature being approximately 45 F. Do you think that perhaps these warm climate elms have adapted and no longer require the dormant period? I would like to know if temperate trees in southern California are capable of blooming & fruiting. It is not an issue with elms & sweetgum, but what about bonsai crabapple? Iris, Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40 "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra |
I read some place, that apples grew in the garden of eden !!! (-;
On Sunday, December 12, 2004, at 08:00 AM, Iris Cohen wrote: I have never heard of any apples that grow in a tropical area, like southern Florida. Bob Seele Nicely outside of Chicago Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler : Albert Einstein ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I read some place, that apples grew in the garden of eden !!! (-;
On Sunday, December 12, 2004, at 08:00 AM, Iris Cohen wrote: I have never heard of any apples that grow in a tropical area, like southern Florida. Bob Seele Nicely outside of Chicago Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler : Albert Einstein ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
It seems that "apple" translated poorly from Hebrew to Greek
then to Latin and ultimately to English and it probably should have read "pomegranate." Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson On 12 Dec 2004 at 8:57, Robert Seele wrote: I read some place, that apples grew in the garden of eden !!! (-; On Sunday, December 12, 2004, at 08:00 AM, Iris Cohen wrote: I have never heard of any apples that grow in a tropical area, like southern Florida. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
It seems that "apple" translated poorly from Hebrew to Greek
then to Latin and ultimately to English and it probably should have read "pomegranate." Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson On 12 Dec 2004 at 8:57, Robert Seele wrote: I read some place, that apples grew in the garden of eden !!! (-; On Sunday, December 12, 2004, at 08:00 AM, Iris Cohen wrote: I have never heard of any apples that grow in a tropical area, like southern Florida. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
It seems that "apple" translated poorly from Hebrew to Greek
then to Latin and ultimately to English and it probably should have read "pomegranate." Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson On 12 Dec 2004 at 8:57, Robert Seele wrote: I read some place, that apples grew in the garden of eden !!! (-; On Sunday, December 12, 2004, at 08:00 AM, Iris Cohen wrote: I have never heard of any apples that grow in a tropical area, like southern Florida. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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