[IBC] airlayering questions
I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on
the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. Kitsune Miko ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote:
I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
John Naka's Bonsai Techniques II page 3 shows an air layering technique I'd
never seen before where he air layers the middle section of a branch and gets roots on both sides. He doesn't say if the end of the branch will die off or not. He does not appear to cut the bark 100% all the way round either, though. John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E03099.27470.D6D17@localhost... On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
John Naka's Bonsai Techniques II page 3 shows an air layering technique I'd
never seen before where he air layers the middle section of a branch and gets roots on both sides. He doesn't say if the end of the branch will die off or not. He does not appear to cut the bark 100% all the way round either, though. John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E03099.27470.D6D17@localhost... On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Interesting. I wonder if he also got roots on the
part furthest away from the tree as well. Kits --- Tex John wrote: John Naka's Bonsai Techniques II page 3 shows an air layering technique I'd never seen before where he air layers the middle section of a branch and gets roots on both sides. He doesn't say if the end of the branch will die off or not. He does not appear to cut the bark 100% all the way round either, though. John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E03099.27470.D6D17@localhost... On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Yes...don't have a scanner or I'd show you...maybe someone else does and can
post it in the forum? Afterwards he appears to peel the bark off the bottom of the air-layered horizontal limb to expose even more cambium and get even more roots round the edge. John "Kitsune Miko" wrote in message o.com... Interesting. I wonder if he also got roots on the part furthest away from the tree as well. Kits --- Tex John wrote: John Naka's Bonsai Techniques II page 3 shows an air layering technique I'd never seen before where he air layers the middle section of a branch and gets roots on both sides. He doesn't say if the end of the branch will die off or not. He does not appear to cut the bark 100% all the way round either, though. John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E03099.27470.D6D17@localhost... On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I have the book in ASCi it looks like this"
|airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits --- Tex John wrote: Yes...don't have a scanner or I'd show you...maybe someone else does and can post it in the forum? Afterwards he appears to peel the bark off the bottom of the air-layered horizontal limb to expose even more cambium and get even more roots round the edge. John "Kitsune Miko" wrote in message o.com... Interesting. I wonder if he also got roots on the part furthest away from the tree as well. Kits --- Tex John wrote: John Naka's Bonsai Techniques II page 3 shows an air layering technique I'd never seen before where he air layers the middle section of a branch and gets roots on both sides. He doesn't say if the end of the branch will die off or not. He does not appear to cut the bark 100% all the way round either, though. John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E03099.27470.D6D17@localhost... On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote:
I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Jim,
This is far beyond my experience, but Naka's hand drawing does show roots on both the trunk-side branch cut and and the branch-tip branch cut. Definately odd looking. Maybe someone can upload a scan to the forum? John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E3F176.29648.14A39DB@localhost... On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Well, I finally looked at the illustration in question.
That's a good idea to do before assessing it, because this is not about taking two airlayers off the same branch. It is about taking one airlayer on an upward growing branch off a lateral branch. The purpose is to create good rootage and a strong base for the new tree. When you remove the airlayer, you eliminate the distal tip of the branch and keep the middle part which has rooted. John Naka was very competent and knew what he was talking about. None of the things in his books were techniques he had not successfully performed himself. By the way, DO NOT scan the illustrations and post them. This book is definitely copyrighted and this should be respected. You will probably be banned from the forum for a while if you do post it. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Tex John Jim, This is far beyond my experience, but Naka's hand drawing does show roots on both the trunk-side branch cut and and the branch-tip branch cut. Definitely odd looking. Maybe someone can upload a scan to the forum? John On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seems to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Let's try this again:
\/ __|___ ------/_____\----------Branch tip ^ ^ Interesting water sprout on branch. Angle cuts as shown, not all the way through the branch. The life line continues unbroken across the top. "^"= roots Naka shows the actual tree planted and the rootage in a photo. Kits --- Tex John wrote: Jim, This is far beyond my experience, but Naka's hand drawing does show roots on both the trunk-side branch cut and and the branch-tip branch cut. Definately odd looking. Maybe someone can upload a scan to the forum? John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E3F176.29648.14A39DB@localhost... On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Someone would need to e-mail Nic about copyright questions,
though since it would be for an educational purpose it probably would be OK. I don't have Naka II, so haven't seen the picture. I have, however, _always_ said that bonsai books are the absolute worst place to get reliable botanical information from. Suggest you call your local agricultural extension office and ask them; they at least should put you in touch with someone who layers often -- perhaps a camellia grower. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac On 12 Jan 2005 at 3:19, Tex John wrote: Jim, This is far beyond my experience, but Naka's hand drawing does show roots on both the trunk-side branch cut and and the branch-tip branch cut. Definately odd looking. Maybe someone can upload a scan to the forum? John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E3F176.29648.14A39DB@localhost... On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has
finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago), there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that is, that root on low branches that touch the ground. Roots that emerge from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed), and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment, and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle sites. Hope that makes sense..... |
This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has
finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago), there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that is, that root on low branches that touch the ground. Roots that emerge from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed), and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment, and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle sites. Hope that makes sense..... |
On 12 Jan 2005 at 6:21, Nina wrote:
This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago), there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that is, that root on low branches that touch the ground. Ahh, but these are different. There's nothing inhibiting the 2- way flow of plant juices as there is in a layer where you've used a tourniquet or have cut away a ring of bark through the cambium. I almost always use the ground-layering method on azaleas and have gotten several plants off one stem, though some of them were pretty short. ;-) Roots that emerge from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed), and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment, and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle sites. Hope that makes sense..... Uhm . . . ? However, anyone is free to try this method and report back to us. (hint) I'M not brave enough to do it on anything I want to keep. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On 12 Jan 2005 at 6:21, Nina wrote:
This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago), there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that is, that root on low branches that touch the ground. Ahh, but these are different. There's nothing inhibiting the 2- way flow of plant juices as there is in a layer where you've used a tourniquet or have cut away a ring of bark through the cambium. I almost always use the ground-layering method on azaleas and have gotten several plants off one stem, though some of them were pretty short. ;-) Roots that emerge from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed), and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment, and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle sites. Hope that makes sense..... Uhm . . . ? However, anyone is free to try this method and report back to us. (hint) I'M not brave enough to do it on anything I want to keep. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Jim Lewis wrote:
On 12 Jan 2005 at 6:21, Nina wrote: This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago), there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that is, that root on low branches that touch the ground. Ahh, but these are different. There's nothing inhibiting the 2- way flow of plant juices as there is in a layer where you've used a tourniquet or have cut away a ring of bark through the cambium. But in the instance, there is neither tourniquet nor a ring of bark cut. It's a saw cut partway through the branch from beneath. The bark is interrupted only on the bottom of the branch, so "plant juices" can still flow along the top. I almost always use the ground-layering method on azaleas and have gotten several plants off one stem, though some of them were pretty short. ;-) Roots that emerge from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed), and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment, and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle sites. Hope that makes sense..... Actually, it isn't a full girdle. The cuts are sawn upwards partially through the branch but the remaining bark is left intact. So the upward-growing branch and the the parent branch are both still maintaining sugar and auxin movement during the layering process. Uhm . . . ? However, anyone is free to try this method and report back to us. (hint) Already did. Pastorio I'M not brave enough to do it on anything I want to keep. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Jim Lewis wrote:
On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. They do. Or at least did on my one try at it. I didn't bother to save it, thought, because it was an uninteresting branch. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-bury-in-the-ground technique. but on that one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. It works. I did an upward-growing branch on a ficus this way. Obviously, the base horizontal branch was sacrificed beyond the first cut. I did the two cuts, put thin strips of plastic into them that extended beyond the cut edges to keep them open. Dusted it all with rooting hormone and packed it in peat moss. Worked fine. When I had roots I liked, I cut the horizontal branch off at the cut farthest from the trunk, and then the other one. Shaved bark on the bottom of the remaining bit of the horizontal branch where more roots grew over time. Planted the layered tree and grew it until 4 years ago when I gave it to a friend as a gift. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. The method of this approach is detailed in Naka "Bonsai Techniques 11" on page 3. I did it pretty much as he explained it there with the addition of the plastic pieces. I was concerned that the cuts would heal so I made it impossible. Pastorio ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Nina: You are absolutely correct. Since Jim thought the other way, I also
got confused. In succulents sometimes we cut a number of pieces from a columnar plant and put it on sand to root and they root easily (provided these are not put upside down). Likewise I have seen many plant lovers cutting Dieffenbachia stem into pieces to propagate more plants. Besides this, in Bonsai Art we make several cuts on the under-side of a branch or on one side of the trunk and root it by ground-layering, to train it into a Raft/Sinuous style! I once demonstrated air layering on a Ficus infectoria branch at three points to three different group of students. Interestingly the roots emanated from all three points from the cambium layer on the upper cut! Thank you for clearing the confusion. Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:51 PM Subject: [IBC] airlayering questions This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago), there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that is, that root on low branches that touch the ground. Roots that emerge from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed), and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment, and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle sites. Hope that makes sense..... ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
there are different ways of air layering according the thickness of the
branche and the species of the plant you can cut a ring of bark as thick as the diameter of the branch is, remove teh bark and make some more carving on the cambium you can strangle under with a wire that fits in a carved ring and apply hormon and sphagnum you can instead cut scales and put a stone and hormons and spagnum to keep the scales open you can make half a cut and put a plastic sheat in between like a credit card blade and sap will not flow trough this part and make roots only from this side .. you can bent a bench e keep it in the soil with a fork to roots it all depends why you are making air layering and which result you are looking for your possibilities of action Bob Pastorio wrote: Jim Lewis wrote: On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. They do. Or at least did on my one try at it. I didn't bother to save it, thought, because it was an uninteresting branch. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-bury-in-the-ground technique. but on that one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. It works. I did an upward-growing branch on a ficus this way. Obviously, the base horizontal branch was sacrificed beyond the first cut. I did the two cuts, put thin strips of plastic into them that extended beyond the cut edges to keep them open. Dusted it all with rooting hormone and packed it in peat moss. Worked fine. When I had roots I liked, I cut the horizontal branch off at the cut farthest from the trunk, and then the other one. Shaved bark on the bottom of the remaining bit of the horizontal branch where more roots grew over time. Planted the layered tree and grew it until 4 years ago when I gave it to a friend as a gift. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. The method of this approach is detailed in Naka "Bonsai Techniques 11" on page 3. I did it pretty much as he explained it there with the addition of the plastic pieces. I was concerned that the cuts would heal so I made it impossible. Pastorio ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
Anil Kaushik wrote: Nina: You are absolutely correct. Since Jim thought the other way, I also got confused. In succulents sometimes we cut a number of pieces from a columnar plant and put it on sand to root and they root easily (provided these are not put upside down). Likewise I have seen many plant lovers cutting Dieffenbachia stem into pieces to propagate more plants. Besides this, in Bonsai Art we make several cuts on the under-side of a branch or on one side of the trunk and root it by ground-layering, to train it into a Raft/Sinuous style! I once demonstrated air layering on a Ficus infectoria branch at three points to three different group of students. Interestingly the roots emanated from all three points from the cambium layer on the upper cut! air layering means that the future bonsai stay attached to the main one until does not make his roots to survive what you do cutting a branche or a trunk in segment and putting into soil is a different method of propagation and is called * cutting* when you prune your maple or punica granatum or Forsyzia or mume you can cut long stems into few smaller ones that has to be buried 2/3 to produce roots ( 19 cm per cutting is the minumum size normally e to make a raft shaving one side of a plant but keeping his roots still attached to the main trunk until the shaved part produce roots is not air layering either ! it is a one of the possible techniques to make rafts Thank you for clearing the confusion. Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:51 PM Subject: [IBC] airlayering questions This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago), there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that is, that root on low branches that touch the ground. Roots that emerge from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed), and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment, and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle sites. Hope that makes sense..... ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
I think various plants do better with vartious
treatments. Some are easy to root and some are not. I have a sacrificial branch on a trident about 1.5 inches in diameter. I am going to try several airlayers as I really should cut off the branch at toss it (like at 64 I need to start more cuttings) So I will do this out of curiosity. Kits --- Theo wrote: there are different ways of air layering according the thickness of the branche and the species of the plant you can cut a ring of bark as thick as the diameter of the branch is, remove teh bark and make some more carving on the cambium you can strangle under with a wire that fits in a carved ring and apply hormon and sphagnum you can instead cut scales and put a stone and hormons and spagnum to keep the scales open you can make half a cut and put a plastic sheat in between like a credit card blade and sap will not flow trough this part and make roots only from this side .. you can bent a bench e keep it in the soil with a fork to roots it all depends why you are making air layering and which result you are looking for your possibilities of action Bob Pastorio wrote: Jim Lewis wrote: On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. They do. Or at least did on my one try at it. I didn't bother to save it, thought, because it was an uninteresting branch. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-bury-in-the-ground technique. but on that one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. It works. I did an upward-growing branch on a ficus this way. Obviously, the base horizontal branch was sacrificed beyond the first cut. I did the two cuts, put thin strips of plastic into them that extended beyond the cut edges to keep them open. Dusted it all with rooting hormone and packed it in peat moss. Worked fine. When I had roots I liked, I cut the horizontal branch off at the cut farthest from the trunk, and then the other one. Shaved bark on the bottom of the remaining bit of the horizontal branch where more roots grew over time. Planted the layered tree and grew it until 4 years ago when I gave it to a friend as a gift. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. The method of this approach is detailed in Naka "Bonsai Techniques 11" on page 3. I did it pretty much as he explained it there with the addition of the plastic pieces. I was concerned that the cuts would heal so I made it impossible. Pastorio ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Kitsune Miko wrote: I think various plants do better with vartious treatments. Some are easy to root and some are not. I have a sacrificial branch on a trident about 1.5 inches in diameter. I am going to try several airlayers as I really should cut off the branch at toss it (like at 64 I need to start more cuttings) So I will do this out of curiosity. Kits --- Theo wrote: why not Trident like most of maples rootens very easily start in spring it takes from 3 to 6 months do you rimember you told me thaht colored maples rootens less well? I have a strange one with weeping branches and yellowish orange leaves that I airlayered in april and had no roots in july and plenty in september .. MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:06:14 -0800, Kitsune Miko wrote:
I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. Kitsune Miko As long as there is sufficient foliage between the layering sites, many species will respond favorably. Rick Choate Mission, Tx ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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