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Does anyone have any suggestions for a systemic fungicide for use on a
Texas Ebony (Pithecellobium flexicaule) with root rot? I can answer this question with absolute certainty, because I just finished a study of the effects of systemic fungicides on Phytophthora ramorum on Rhododendron (come to Austin, Texas this August for the American Phytopathology Society meeting, and you can watch my Powerpoint Presentation!)*. The answer: Systemic fungicides do NOTHING for an existing infection. They aren't fungi-CIDES (i.e. fungal-killers), they are fungistatics (fungal growth inhibitors). The pathogen will stop growing for a couple of weeks, then it will start up again. The only way to use a systemic is as a preventative measure, and I don't recommend that for a hobbyist- only for a professional with thousands of plants. My reason for looking at this is because nursery retailers in California are suspicious that big wholesalers are treating plants with systemic fungicides to arrest "sudden oak death" long enough to sell them. But my findings are pretty clear: they symptoms are still visible, even if the pathogen isn't growing, and a PCR molecular test will detect the pathogen. Nina, who infected 30 plants last week in order to look at the effect of systemic fungicides on antibody-based detection methods. *Any bonsai-related stuff to do in Austin? |
Nina,
Are you the Nina Shishkoff, plant pathologist from the LIHRL, that wrote "Using Fungicides to Control Bonsai Diseases" at: http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/fungicid.htm? That article talks about using "An ERADICANT" to "...kill fungi that have already invaded the plant." Later in the article several fungicides are mentioned, including Fosetyl-A1 and Metalaxyl for water molds and thiophanate methyl for other fungi, but fails to distinguish if these are systemic fungicides or eradicants. Has more recent work invalidated portions of that article? Would sustained, judicial, treatment of all three types of fungicides (protectant, systemic, and eradicant) not slow or halt progression of the infection allowing more time in which to perform repots and continued isolation and removal of the infected tissue. I've also read that the use of thiophanate methyl will affect the mycorrhizal fungi. Should new colonies be introduced after any use of this fungicide? This tree was a gift from my wife and it was immediately obvious that the organics in the soil had broken down and the soil compacted. I repotted the tree but the only soil I had available was shohin soil - low organic and free draining but the particle size could have been larger. The roots looked a little thin but otherwise ok at that time. I trimmed them back to about half their length - about 18", still too long but I was considering the overall quantity of roots tips and figured I could adjust at the next potting - then treated with rooting hormone to increase root mass near the base. That was several months ago and now I'm getting suspicious that the tree may have root rot. I've had a couple of limbs die and while I'm getting new growth the old growth seems to be suffering. I'm planning to repot to an inorganic soil (lava) of the appropriate particle size and want to be prepared for what I find. Thanks, Don -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of Nina Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 9:33 AM To: Subject: [IBC] Root Rot-TREATMENT Does anyone have any suggestions for a systemic fungicide for use on a Texas Ebony (Pithecellobium flexicaule) with root rot? I can answer this question with absolute certainty, because I just finished a study of the effects of systemic fungicides on Phytophthora ramorum on Rhododendron (come to Austin, Texas this August for the American Phytopathology Society meeting, and you can watch my Powerpoint Presentation!)*. The answer: Systemic fungicides do NOTHING for an existing infection. They aren't fungi-CIDES (i.e. fungal-killers), they are fungistatics (fungal growth inhibitors). The pathogen will stop growing for a couple of weeks, then it will start up again. The only way to use a systemic is as a preventative measure, and I don't recommend that for a hobbyist- only for a professional with thousands of plants. My reason for looking at this is because nursery retailers in California are suspicious that big wholesalers are treating plants with systemic fungicides to arrest "sudden oak death" long enough to sell them. But my findings are pretty clear: they symptoms are still visible, even if the pathogen isn't growing, and a PCR molecular test will detect the pathogen. Nina, who infected 30 plants last week in order to look at the effect of systemic fungicides on antibody-based detection methods. *Any bonsai-related stuff to do in Austin? ************************************************** ************ ****************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ************ ****************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
That was several months ago and now I'm getting suspicious that the tree may have root rot. I've had a couple of limbs die and while I'm getting new growth the old growth seems to be suffering. I'm planning to repot to an inorganic soil (lava) of the appropriate particle size and want to be prepared for what I find. I'm glad Nina replied. I was going to but decided not to after the chemical warfare experts recommended an arsenal of *cides to "cure" it. I'm not a root scientist or a bona-fide expert in fungal diseases (Nina is), but I've been growing things -- in pots and out -- for a LONG time. And I'm still enough of a scientist to observe very carefully. In my experience, no one who isn't a commercial grower or applicator has access to ANY fungicide that will reliably "cure" an on-going fungus attack. If you have a fungus ailment, your only hope is to get rid of the conditions that create it, whether that is excess moisture, too much rotting vegetation in the soil, or whatever. For root rot, you bare root, get rid of all infected root (and then some), and replant in clean soil. For diseases of stems and leaves, you prune away the infected area (and then some) -- and hope. Usually in vain. Unlike with insecticides, and as Nina said, you CAN use fungicides to HELP prevent fungus attacks -- but you need to know what potential fungus you are attacking in order to choose the right chemical -- and I find it is a much more sure thing to simply eliminate the things that cause fungus in the first place. Cleanliness IS next to godliness in plant care. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I need to add that your tree may NOT have root rot if you took a
considerable amount of root of your Texas ebony. I find that these trees tend to sulk for a considerable time after extensive chopping of roots. So unless you lift it from the pot and find black smelly roots, I'd just watch your watering (they'd rather be dry than wet) and wait. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you (that) the berries are just about all gone. -- Uncle Dave Macon, musician That was several months ago and now I'm getting suspicious that the tree may have root rot. I've had a couple of limbs die and while I'm getting new growth the old growth seems to be suffering. I'm planning to repot to an inorganic soil (lava) of the appropriate particle size and want to be prepared for what I find. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Don Walker wrote: Nina, Are you the Nina Shishkoff, plant pathologist from the LIHRL, that wrote "Using Fungicides to Control Bonsai Diseases" at: http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/fungicid.htm? Yup. That was me about 10 years ago. I'd have to go back and read it, but I doubt I advised using any kind of fungicide for root rots, because it's hopeless. It's *so* much easier to treat foliar diseases. That article talks about using "An ERADICANT" to "...kill fungi that have already invaded the plant." I'll have to look at that article to see if I'm being unclear (it wouldn't be the first time). The terms "protectant" and eradicant" refer to the hoped-for action: to either protect the plant before infection or to act later to eradicate the pathogen after infection. "Systemic" is a more specific term indicating that the chemical moves around in living tissue; that's all it means. It's possible to be an eradicant without being a systemic, but I can't think of an example offhand, except hydrogen peroxide. But I'm pretty sure in that article I'm talking about foliar diseases, where many systemic fungicides work VERY well. If they are fungistatic rather than fungicidal, it doesn't matter, because if they stop the epidemic during, say, rainy weather, it doesn't matter if they stop working when the weather is no longer conducive to disease. With root rots, conditions are almost always conducive, so a fungistat is a losing proposition. Would sustained, judicial, treatment of all three types of fungicides (protectant, systemic, and eradicant) not slow or halt progression of the infection allowing more time in which to perform repots and continued isolation and removal of the infected tissue. Judicial use of all three kinds of fungicides is the backbone of Integrated Pest Management (IPM)! But as several people already mentioned, with root rot the best treatment is to improve soil conditions. If you have a pesticide applicator's license (Jim is correct: it's the only way to have access to the "good stuff"),and want to use a good fungistat like Subdue Maxx on a tree with root rot and *then* trim off the diseased roots and repot into a better soil, that's a valid plan. But trimming the diseased roots and repotting alone is a valid plan, too. I've also read that the use of thiophanate methyl will affect the mycorrhizal fungi. Should new colonies be introduced after any use of this fungicide? Yes, although you know my feeling about this: mycorrhizal fungi do nothing in a bonsai pot. They only have an effect in underfertilized plants, and that doesn't describe *your* bonsai, does it? I trimmed them back to about half their length - about 18", still too long but I was considering the overall quantity of roots tips and figured I could adjust at the next potting - then treated with rooting hormone to increase root mass near the base. Rooting hormone will inhibit preexisting roots, so it should only be used when rooting cuttings. That was several months ago and now I'm getting suspicious that the tree may have root rot. I've had a couple of limbs die and while I'm getting new growth the old growth seems to be suffering. I'm planning to repot to an inorganic soil (lava) of the appropriate particle size and want to be prepared for what I find. I don't know that you have evidence of root rot. You may just have repot shock. lava soil sounds good, but don't shock the plant any more than you have to. Nina, who only uses two pesticides on her bonsai: pyrethrins (for mites and scales) and bordeaux mix (a protectant for foliar pathogens). Good growing conditions and regular fertilization are your BEST defense against disease. |
Oh, I see. In my first post, I never said the words "when talking
about root rot" . So let me say this clearly: systemic fungicides aren't much good with root rots. They can be very effective with some foliar diseases. But their effectiveness is mostly in preventing new disease due to the superb coverage allowed by a systemic (the fungicide moves around inside the plant and gets to places you missed when spraying); the eradicant action is over-rated. Nina, never as clear as she means to be. |
In a message dated 4/9/2005 2:23:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: In my experience, no one who isn't a commercial grower or applicator has access to ANY fungicide that will reliably "cure" an on-going fungus attack. If you have a fungus ailment, your only hope is to get rid of the conditions that create it, whether that is excess moisture, too much rotting vegetation in the soil, or whatever. For root rot, you bare root, get rid of all infected root (and then some), and replant in clean soil. For diseases of stems and leaves, you prune away the infected area (and then some) -- and hope. Usually in vain. Friends: This is not always in vain: many individuals have come to me with bonsai suffering from root rot, and many of these trees have come back--not all. My procedure as provided will work for trees with root rot. As for Benomyl, if this does not effectively work again root rot (based on recent research), it is clearly an indication that the treatment as presented in an earlier email works in and of itself. );-) Cordially, Michael Persiano members.aol.com/iasnob ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Jim Lewis wrote:
I need to add that your tree may NOT have root rot if you took a considerable amount of root of your Texas ebony. I find that these trees tend to sulk for a considerable time after extensive chopping of roots. So unless you lift it from the pot and find black smelly roots, I'd just watch your watering (they'd rather be dry than wet) and wait. Good advice and observation Jim. Let me first declare that I am not a plant pathologist although I play one at the nursery a LOT. So Nina may want to chime in here and correct me. Not long ago this issue came up in the Bonsaisite forum and this was part of my answer: Finally there is one point I want to clear up that is almost universally misunderstood in the bonsai (and gardening) world. 'Rot' in heartwood, live stem and root tissue, and root heartwood, comes in two flavors, pathogenic, and non pathogenic. Non pathogenic fungi cause the common everyday process of composting. It actually consists of fungi, bacteria, and other microorganism (even some macro animals). These organisms eat DEAD tissue. Pathogenic fungi and bacteria only eat LIVE tissue, although some fungi that start out as composters can, in some extraordinary cases, convert to a pathogenic form. Most of what we think of as 'root rot' is NON pathogenic, that is, it is the composting of already dead tissue. Yes, I know, you wash off the roots and there is all this DEAD mushy black root tissue, and it's seemingly growing! The composting will continue moving into the already DEAD tissue. What killed it then? In 99 cases out of 100 that I see, the cause of the death is not pathogenic fungi, but rather environmental conditions, namely anaerobic conditions (too much water, too little air). The roots cannot tolerate these conditions and die. This is actually GOOD root rot, because it is easily reversible, just by correcting the environmental conditions. There are no pathogens to control or eliminate (good luck!). There is no need to sterilize the roots, the soil, pots , etc. In fact it is often counterproductive because you will eliminate all the BENEFICIAL fungi and microorganisms as well. It is especially wasteful and dangerous to use fungicides, since they are made to destroy pathogenic fungi, but in most cases, they are broad spectrum and will kill nearly ALL fungi, pathogenic and beneficial. I have reversed THOUSANDS of cases of 'root rot' by simply washing the roots clean, repotting in fresh soil, and optimizing the growing conditions. Pathogenic root rot is different and is limited to a very tight set of conditions and a few (usually) species. Because of this, they are usually seasonally dependent as well (wet spring weather for example). Pathogenic fungi and bacteria actually KILLS LIVE tissue as it feeds off it, and also often blocks the vascular tissue with its mass and by products, killing other live, uninfected tissue by dehydration (wilts). After this tissue is killed by the pathogen, non pathogenic composters will move in and 'rot' the tissue. What difference does it make? A lot. You can pretty much ignore non pathogenic fungi after correcting environmental conditions. Treating and controlling pathogenic fungi is extremely difficult and correcting or altering the environmental conditions is just the beginning. It is also INFECTIOUS. Fungicides can play a role in controlling it, but changing the environment is the most important part. In most cases, it is the plant itself that will effect the control by shedding parts of itself or walling off the disease. How do tell the difference? This CAN be most difficult, and often requires an expert. County Ag extension agents are trained in this (pathology) and their sub agents or Master Gardeners may be able to help. The only real way to find out definitively is to submit samples to a plant pathologist, but by then it is usually too late for a specific plant. This usually cost money. There used to be many free university sources, but as FEDERAL funding for this is drying up, most of us have to pay for this now, including farmers. So consider that while you are mulling over your political opinions. Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I used Aliette on roots rot on a pentaphilla and survived ; (now) 12
months from the infection started , is budding normally but I cut rots teh little left were into akadama and pozzolane soil very draining and no fertilizer all year around Michael Persiano wrote: In a message dated 4/9/2005 2:23:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: In my experience, no one who isn't a commercial grower or applicator has access to ANY fungicide that will reliably "cure" an on-going fungus attack. If you have a fungus ailment, your only hope is to get rid of the conditions that create it, whether that is excess moisture, too much rotting vegetation in the soil, or whatever. For root rot, you bare root, get rid of all infected root (and then some), and replant in clean soil. For diseases of stems and leaves, you prune away the infected area (and then some) -- and hope. Usually in vain. Friends: This is not always in vain: many individuals have come to me with bonsai suffering from root rot, and many of these trees have come back--not all. My procedure as provided will work for trees with root rot. As for Benomyl, if this does not effectively work again root rot (based on recent research), it is clearly an indication that the treatment as presented in an earlier email works in and of itself. );-) Cordially, Michael Persiano members.aol.com/iasnob ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Brent Walston wrote: Pathogenic fungi and bacteria only eat LIVE tissue, I'll just correct you for the sake of being annoying. There are two types of pathogenic fungi: necrotrophs and biotrophs. Biotrophs attack living tissue. Necrotrophs kill tissue, and then eat it. I only bring up this trivial distinction because fungi are defined as organisms that excrete enzymes and then absorb their food. Things in the animal kingdom *ingest* food. So it is easy for a Phytophthora to excrete nasty enzymes, kill plant tissue, and then grow into it. [note: Phytophthora is now defined as an alga in the Kingdom Plantae so the definition for the Kingdome Fungi is now slightly modified]. although some fungi that start out as composters can, in some extraordinary cases, convert to a pathogenic form. There's a continuum among necrotrophs, from those readily kill tissue (Pythium, Fusarium, Verticillium)to those that need special conditions. Something like Choanephora is largely a "composter", but if it gets an energy boost, it will turn pathogen. Many fungi like this attack blossoms; they eat the nectar, get strong, then attack the branch. Botrytis cineria is a weak pathogen, but in the presence of flowers, wounds, or honeydew secreted by aphids, it will turn mean. Fungicides can play a role in controlling it, but changing the environment is the most important part. No argument! In most cases, it is the plant itself that will effect the control by shedding parts of itself or walling off the disease. How do tell the difference? This CAN be most difficult, and often requires an expert. County Ag extension agents are trained in this (pathology) and their sub agents or Master Gardeners may be able to help. The only real way to find out definitively is to submit samples to a plant pathologist, but by then it is usually too late for a specific plant. Too true. Plus, we tend to pull the plant apart to diagnose it. We suspect root rot if we see wilting on one side of the plant. To be sure, we look for brown streaks in the xylem, which can only be seen by carving up the trunk. Then we culture and if we come up with a root rot pathogen, we tell you what to spray to save the *currently healthy* remainder of your plants. We never try to save the plant brought in as a sample!!! Remember that if you call Cooperative Extension. For the bonsaist, it makes sense to assume that repotting will solve the problem. Either you will, or you won't. Nina. |
"There's a continuum among necrotrophs, from those readily kill tissue
(Pythium, Fusarium, Verticillium)to those that need special conditions. Something like Choanephora is largely a "composter", but if it gets an energy boost, it will turn pathogen. Many fungi like this attack blossoms; they eat the nectar, get strong, then attack the branch. Botrytis cineria is a weak pathogen, but in the presence of flowers, wounds, or honeydew secreted by aphids, it will turn mean." This makes me wonder about the "benefits" of compost teas that are now being populary sold this season! Joseph McCoy Austin, Texas zone8b ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina" To: Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 9:01 AM Subject: [IBC] Root Rot-TREATMENT Brent Walston wrote: Pathogenic fungi and bacteria only eat LIVE tissue, I'll just correct you for the sake of being annoying. There are two types of pathogenic fungi: necrotrophs and biotrophs. Biotrophs attack living tissue. Necrotrophs kill tissue, and then eat it. I only bring up this trivial distinction because fungi are defined as organisms that excrete enzymes and then absorb their food. Things in the animal kingdom *ingest* food. So it is easy for a Phytophthora to excrete nasty enzymes, kill plant tissue, and then grow into it. [note: Phytophthora is now defined as an alga in the Kingdom Plantae so the definition for the Kingdome Fungi is now slightly modified]. although some fungi that start out as composters can, in some extraordinary cases, convert to a pathogenic form. There's a continuum among necrotrophs, from those readily kill tissue (Pythium, Fusarium, Verticillium)to those that need special conditions. Something like Choanephora is largely a "composter", but if it gets an energy boost, it will turn pathogen. Many fungi like this attack blossoms; they eat the nectar, get strong, then attack the branch. Botrytis cineria is a weak pathogen, but in the presence of flowers, wounds, or honeydew secreted by aphids, it will turn mean. Fungicides can play a role in controlling it, but changing the environment is the most important part. No argument! In most cases, it is the plant itself that will effect the control by shedding parts of itself or walling off the disease. How do tell the difference? This CAN be most difficult, and often requires an expert. County Ag extension agents are trained in this (pathology) and their sub agents or Master Gardeners may be able to help. The only real way to find out definitively is to submit samples to a plant pathologist, but by then it is usually too late for a specific plant. Too true. Plus, we tend to pull the plant apart to diagnose it. We suspect root rot if we see wilting on one side of the plant. To be sure, we look for brown streaks in the xylem, which can only be seen by carving up the trunk. Then we culture and if we come up with a root rot pathogen, we tell you what to spray to save the *currently healthy* remainder of your plants. We never try to save the plant brought in as a sample!!! Remember that if you call Cooperative Extension. For the bonsaist, it makes sense to assume that repotting will solve the problem. Either you will, or you won't. Nina. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
"There's a continuum among necrotrophs, from those readily kill tissue
(Pythium, Fusarium, Verticillium)to those that need special conditions. Something like Choanephora is largely a "composter", but if it gets an energy boost, it will turn pathogen. Many fungi like this attack blossoms; they eat the nectar, get strong, then attack the branch. Botrytis cineria is a weak pathogen, but in the presence of flowers, wounds, or honeydew secreted by aphids, it will turn mean." This makes me wonder about the "benefits" of compost teas that are now being populary sold this season! Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result. I've never seen the stuff sold (and think it would be foolish to buy it if you make your own compost), but I've been known to make it myself. Organic gardeners say that this tea does have some fungicidal uses, but they also admit it is very slight. They also tout baking soda, but again don't claim a lot for it. The compost spoken of above is so-called "natural" compost -- the stuff that forms under a bed of forest leaves, or in normal decaying organic material in soil. It is moisture and time, rather than significant heat (though some heat is involved, of course in any oxidation-decomposition process), that makes this compost, and pathogens and other "bugs" are not killed. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
"Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in
the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result." Jim, so how is it that heat kills the varmints but keeps the critters? That is, if both good and bad algae/fungi are exposed to heat, why is it that only the pathogenic forms are killed by this heat? Thanks, Jim ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I should probably stand by and let the experts run this
one, but fools rush in.... Who said that the heat kills only the bad things? Truth be told, I suspect that some of both survive and most of both are cooked. But that misses the bigger point. Dealing with root rot is a matter of prevention. Keeping a healthy tree in coarse, well draining soil with good aeration and nutrition are the way to go. A really healthy tree is not going to have a problem with these nasties in the first place. It's only when we ignore or neglect what we know about good horticulture that we have to deal with root rot in the first place. I should know. I've been guilty often enough myself more times than I'm comfortable acknowledging. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Jim Trahan "Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result." Jim, so how is it that heat kills the varmints but keeps the critters? That is, if both good and bad algae/fungi are exposed to heat, why is it that only the pathogenic forms are killed by this heat? Thanks, Jim ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Alan,
I hear you about "fools rush in"! But I am very intrested in this point about the compost teas. Austin is very big on organics, and many nurseries are selling freshly brewed compost teas at $7/gal. It's being praised by a local garden guru as the very grail of gardening. This guru also promotes "paramagnetism" for more vigorous roots. So when he hands me Kool-Aid, I don't drink it; and when he pitches me compost tea, despite his beautiful plants, I'm reluctant to use it. And now I hear that the good stuff in compost can turn bad when give the chance. I recognize that it is largely a matter of hygiene, but not all of the plants in my collection have had good sub-surface hygiene before coming to my bench. In other words, many of my trees are in various stages of good potting culture, despite my best efforts. I'm just curious to know if this aerobiclly brewed compost tea people are selling is potentially dangerous. Cheers, Jim ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
In a message dated 4/12/2005 1:41:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes: I'm just curious to know if this aerobically brewed compost tea people are selling is potentially dangerous. The "real" organic gardeners are into "do it yourself because you know the ingredients." In theory compost tea is safe because of the heat generated by the composting process, but what went into the compost? If the compost was made from lawn clippings heavily treated with herbicides, chemical fertilizers and insecticides how safe is it? Or, if the compost tea was made from diseased material and the temperature was not high enough? Billy on the Florida Space Coast ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Austin is very big on organics, and many nurseries are selling freshly brewed compost teas at $7/gal. It's being praised by a local garden guru as the very grail of gardening. This guru also promotes "paramagnetism" for more vigorous roots. Yes, on Long Island you can buy homeopathic, magnetic compost tea! That's right, I said magnetic; it contains ground-up magnets. And I said homeopathic: one teaspoon of tea to 100 gallons of water, but be assured that the "vibrations" from the compost molecules are transforming the water, and making your lawn green and healthy. On Long Island, we had to understand compost tea because our growers were hypnotised by it (as well as electrostatic generators and cow horns that focussed bioenergy). We also had a lawn-waste compost industry that was pressuring us to come up with more uses for the stuff, so they could make a profit. So I can say a few things about it. 1) The source matters. The lawn waste compost was poor quality and it contained so many pesticide residues that it was inhibitory if used on tomatoes. Whereas composted malt and barley from out fledgling beer industry was GREAT STUFF that dramatically increased the percent organic material and improved the texture of agricultural soil. It also had a high microbial activity as measured by fluoroscein diacetate assays. 2) It's true: pathogens are largely killed by temperatures that won't kill beneficial bacteria. But it's hard for anything but a big, professional operation to get even, consistent heating. Most home-composters can't do it, and sloppy operations can't do it. The risk of getting disease by using poorly prepared compost is minimal, compared to using, say, regular soil. But it can happen. 3) I've got friends who study compost tea. They have found minimal benefits for disease control. But the quality of tea varies from batch to batch, and it's difficult to replicate anything. I can't say that *no* tea works, just that it's hard to study. Especially hard to study is "induced resistance", where mycorrhiza or compost tea or various other things are supposed to trigger the plant's natural defenses. You can find studies that say everything from "it works" to "it doesn't" to "it's detrimental". I've seen studies that show that a pathogen sets up induced resistance to itself in a host plant. Think about it. How well can that work, if it's a pathogen? I think everyone should have a compost heap, but I'm skipping the tea, the magnets and the cow-horns, thanks. |
I should probably stand by and let the experts run this
one, but fools rush in.... Who said that the heat kills only the bad things? Truth be told, I suspect that some of both survive and most of both are cooked. But that misses the bigger point. Dealing with root rot is a matter of prevention. Keeping a healthy tree in coarse, well draining soil with good aeration and nutrition are the way to go. A really healthy tree is not going to have a problem with these nasties in the first place. It's only when we ignore or neglect what we know about good horticulture that we have to deal with root rot in the first place. I should know. I've been guilty often enough myself more times than I'm comfortable acknowledging. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Jim Trahan "Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result." Jim, so how is it that heat kills the varmints but keeps the critters? That is, if both good and bad algae/fungi are exposed to heat, why is it that only the pathogenic forms are killed by this heat? Well, I replied privately to the effect that in the process of normal composting, it seems that the "baddies" are more susceptible to heat than the "good guys." Of course, this won't be 100%, but that's essentially why composting works and you don't kill (via root rot or other disease) whatever you plant in that "black gold" after you've made it. I don't KNOW, but assume, that the additional heat required to make useful compost tea -- and the stuff is barely useful at that! -- has a similar effect. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I'm just curious to know if this aerobiclly brewed compost tea people are
selling is potentially dangerous. Sure if it sits around and isn't used soon after it is made (or opened in the case of a commercial product). Mere exposure to air in a garden situation leaves it open to contamination, and the longer (or more often) the exposure that more likely there will be baddies getting in an fermenting in that nutrient soup. Buy (or make) it and use it! But again, benefits are small -- either as a fertilizer or a fungicide. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Nina wrote:
SNIP I can't say that *no* tea works, just that it's hard to study. Especially hard to study is "induced resistance", where mycorrhiza or compost tea or various other things are supposed to trigger the plant's natural defenses. You can find studies that say everything from "it works" to "it doesn't" to "it's detrimental". I've seen studies that show that a pathogen sets up induced resistance to itself in a host plant. Think about it. How well can that work, if it's a pathogen? I think everyone should have a compost heap, but I'm skipping the tea, the magnets and the cow-horns, thanks. Yup. :-) Between us you get the ol' one-two punch -- and SHE adds magnetism! (I have a garden supply catalog in my possession which advertises a magnet that you fasten to your water pipes that "magnetizes" the calcium out of your water. Just $35.00. Beats the hell out of a water softening system! If you believe that . . . I have a bridge . . . or, 5,000 gallons of stuporthrive -- to sell you. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote: Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result. Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere near enough to kill any pathogens. The only significant heat involved is that which occurs during composting, before you make the tea. Here are some articles about making compost tea: http://www.taunton.com/finegardening/pages/g00030.asp http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/airwaste/wm/recycle/Tea/tea1.htm http://www.ann-mccormick.com/HerbNCowgirl/CompostTea.htm http://perc.ca/PEN/1997-12-01/king.html http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/gl_soil_wat...3634_1369956,0 0.html Organic gardeners say that this tea does have some fungicidal uses, but they also admit it is very slight. Scientific opinion seems to be divided on the alleged fungicidal properties of compost tea. There probably hasn't been enough solid research to give a clear answer. |
In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote: Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result. Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere near enough to kill any pathogens. Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any length of time after it's been in full sun all day. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you (that) the berries are just about all gone. -- Uncle Dave Macon, musician ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
In article 425BD740.6334.17DC4EC@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote: In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost, (Jim Lewis) wrote: Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result. Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere near enough to kill any pathogens. Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any length of time after it's been in full sun all day. If you're referring to the smell, the instructions I found say that you shouldn't use it if it smells bad; it should smell sweet & earthy. Using aquarium equipment to keep it aerated supposedly inhibits the growth of the anaerobic bugs that cause bad smells. |
In article 425BD740.6334.17DC4EC@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote: In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost, (Jim Lewis) wrote: Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result. Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere near enough to kill any pathogens. Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any length of time after it's been in full sun all day. If you're referring to the smell, the instructions I found say that you shouldn't use it if it smells bad; it should smell sweet & earthy. Using aquarium equipment to keep it aerated supposedly inhibits the growth of the anaerobic bugs that cause bad smells. No. The bottle -- assuming it is clear glass -- gets hot! Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
In article 425BFF22.13803.219962F@localhost,
(Jim Lewis) wrote: In article 425BD740.6334.17DC4EC@localhost, (Jim Lewis) wrote: In article 425A8FEF.20130.63250A@localhost, (Jim Lewis) wrote: Why? Compost tea uses a good deal of heat (in addition to the heat generated in the making of good garden-type compost) in the process of making it. It should be free of pathogens as a result. Compost tea is made using *unheated* water, according to all the instructions I've seen. It may get warm sitting in the sun, but nowhere near enough to kill any pathogens. Well, around here you don't want to hold the bottle for any length of time after it's been in full sun all day. If you're referring to the smell, the instructions I found say that you shouldn't use it if it smells bad; it should smell sweet & earthy. Using aquarium equipment to keep it aerated supposedly inhibits the growth of the anaerobic bugs that cause bad smells. No. The bottle -- assuming it is clear glass -- gets hot! Ah. Well, the instructions I've seen say to use a 2- to 5-gallon bucket or garbage pail, and the ones with photos show white plastic buckets. Even a black plastic bucket wouldn't get that hot just sitting in the sun. |
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