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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly
fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? Ed (South-East UK) |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message o.uk... I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? There is no concern with pathogens with manure from vegetarian beasts except perhaps if you know the beast to be ill with a disease transmittable to humans. In your case I'd be more concerned with viable weed seeds. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
"Ed" wrote ... I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about anything else of concern. "No major human disease has ever been accurately attributed to the intimate contact human beings have had with horses for thousands of years. Veterinarians and vet students probably have the greatest exposure to true risk from horse manure. The horse has a very inefficient gut: it's a one-way throughput system. Horses are physiologically incapable of vomiting or regurgitating. If something gets stuck on the way through, the only way to get it out is by surgery or physical intervention. As a result, you will often find vets armpit deep under a horse's tail. Nevertheless, there has never been a documented case of veterinarians contracting illness as a result of this rather extreme true exposure to horse manure." We use well rotted 1 year old stuff and have never had any trouble. -- Regards Bob Hobden just W. of London |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
On 15/07/09 16:12, brooklyn1 wrote:
"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message o.uk... I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? There is no concern with pathogens with manure from vegetarian beasts except perhaps if you know the beast to be ill with a disease transmittable to humans. In your case I'd be more concerned with viable weed seeds. Weeds aren't a great problem for me.. I got the time and I love weeding most days. Most of my weeds anyway are in-blown from other plots so I always expect them. But thanks for the re-assurance on the pathogens though. I'd hate to grow my own crops and then find I make my family ill. Ed |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
brooklyn1 wrote: "Ed" ex@directory wrote in message news:iP6dnZNfUIW_c8DXnZ2dnUVZ8ridnZ2d@brightview. co.uk... The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? There is no concern with pathogens with manure from vegetarian beasts except perhaps if you know the beast to be ill with a disease transmittable to humans. In your case I'd be more concerned with viable weed seeds. That is essentially true. There are very few diseases with sufficiently resistant spores that they will survive any form of composting, and most of those are extremely implausible. None will contaminate vegetables, anyway, and the only risk is getting the compost into a cut, eating it if you don't wash it off, etc. The only ones that are at all likely are carried by cats and other carnivores, as you say. Worrying about tetanus and anthrax is not a productive activity .... Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
Bob Hobden wrote: Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about anything else of concern. Try anthrax. However, with both tetanus and anthrax, you are likely to have trouble only if the dung comes from a stable where they shovel dead horses out with the bedding. Not generally the case .... Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
On 15/07/09 16:24, Bob Hobden wrote:
"Ed" wrote ... I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about anything else of concern. "No major human disease has ever been accurately attributed to the intimate contact human beings have had with horses for thousands of years. Veterinarians and vet students probably have the greatest exposure to true risk from horse manure. The horse has a very inefficient gut: it's a one-way throughput system. Horses are physiologically incapable of vomiting or regurgitating. If something gets stuck on the way through, the only way to get it out is by surgery or physical intervention. As a result, you will often find vets armpit deep under a horse's tail. Nevertheless, there has never been a documented case of veterinarians contracting illness as a result of this rather extreme true exposure to horse manure." We use well rotted 1 year old stuff and have never had any trouble. No, I not no expert scientist or nothing nor read scientific papers. I am just a gardener. But I see a few articles on the web that says if you maintain a hot heap then it will kill pathogens.. If you run a cold heap then these things are not killed off with the heat. Hence my concern. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
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Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
Ed ex@directory wrote: No, I not no expert scientist or nothing nor read scientific papers. I am just a gardener. But I see a few articles on the web that says if you maintain a hot heap then it will kill pathogens.. If you run a cold heap then these things are not killed off with the heat. Hence my concern. A lot of such rubbish is written by Merkins, who manage to make Little Englanders look intelligent. You need to be able to judge which authors have Clue and which don't. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
RJBL wrote: Cl. tetani; Cl. Welchii; various E.coli and salmonella strains and Cryptosporidium all are risks from the use of farmyard and stable manures. Historically, the biggest risk to agricultural labourers and gardeners has been tetanus and gas-gangrene infections of, often, very trivial wounds. The extent to which the organic veg growing fad has been responsible for the increase, over the last few decades is unestimated. Best to keep your AT injections up to date and wash and boil everything that you eat from your veg / salad patch Oh, nuts! WHAT increase in tetanus and gas-gangrene in the UK? The historical dangers were because a LOT of farm animals died from tetanus, anthrax etc. and the spores were everywhere. Well, they still are, but are not transmitted by that route any more because of the efficiency with which infected animals are detected and disposed of. Yes, keep your tetanus innoculation up to date, but don't use two century old information as a guide to safe practices. A lot of the others you mention are something that most people have some immunity to, or even aren't pathogens at all (for example, you NEED E. coli to stay healthy). There is also increasing evidence that preventing children from being exposed to them increases the risk of much more serious problems. Exercise your immune system and stop fussing. Yes, of course, some people are at special risk. Don't START training your immune system in old age or when ill, and so on. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message ... On 15/07/09 16:12, brooklyn1 wrote: "Ed" ex@directory wrote in message o.uk... I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? There is no concern with pathogens with manure from vegetarian beasts except perhaps if you know the beast to be ill with a disease transmittable to humans. In your case I'd be more concerned with viable weed seeds. Weeds aren't a great problem for me.. I got the time and I love weeding most days. Most of my weeds anyway are in-blown from other plots so I always expect them. But thanks for the re-assurance on the pathogens though. I'd hate to grow my own crops and then find I make my family ill. Ed Ed, your biggest concern should be whether or not the horse's paddock was sprayed with a broadleaf herbicide. The herbicide will pass harmlessly through the horse and wipe out you garden. Check with the source of your manure, it would be heartbreaking to have that happen. Cheers, Steve |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
Nick wrote after Bob Hobden wrote: Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about anything else of concern. Try anthrax. However, with both tetanus and anthrax, you are likely to have trouble only if the dung comes from a stable where they shovel dead horses out with the bedding. Not generally the case .... I agree there are possibly some other pathogens in Horse dung but in practice they don't pose much of a risk to human health these days. Not worth worrying about provided you use normal sensible measures like washing hands etc. -- Regards Bob Hobden just W. of London |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
Ed wrote:
On 15/07/09 16:24, Bob Hobden wrote: "Ed" wrote ... I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. If the bins were more like 6'x6'x6' they would probably hold enough heat in the bulk material to become hot. I only turn mine once to put the edges into the middle. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about anything else of concern. "No major human disease has ever been accurately attributed to the intimate contact human beings have had with horses for thousands of years. Veterinarians and vet students probably have the greatest exposure to true risk from horse manure. The horse has a very inefficient gut: it's a one-way throughput system. Horses are physiologically incapable of vomiting or regurgitating. If something gets stuck on the way through, the only way to get it out is by surgery or physical intervention. As a result, you will often find vets armpit deep under a horse's tail. Nevertheless, there has never been a documented case of veterinarians contracting illness as a result of this rather extreme true exposure to horse manure." We use well rotted 1 year old stuff and have never had any trouble. No, I not no expert scientist or nothing nor read scientific papers. I am just a gardener. But I see a few articles on the web that says if you maintain a hot heap then it will kill pathogens.. If you run a cold heap then these things are not killed off with the heat. Hence my concern. A hot heap works a bit faster and it is only really hot for a few days. Mainly it helps to kill off weed seeds. My heaps go hot when I put a few cubic metres of grass cuttings on them in one go. I have had one up to smouldering. If you can add enough of anything to the heap at once with the right amount of water you will get it hot for a while. The horse dung will act OK as an accelerant, but if you want something that will encourage a hot heap then the proprietory mix Garotta (sp?) seems to work as well as anything. I wouldn't worry about pathogens from horse dung either. And if you have access to plenty of straw and horse manure it is worth fermenting some to make your own mushroom compost. I might worry about that persistent residual pesticide that has been causing trouble in winter hay though. Regards, Martin Brown |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote: "Ed" ex@directory wrote in message ... On 15/07/09 16:12, brooklyn1 wrote: "Ed" ex@directory wrote in message o.uk... I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? There is no concern with pathogens with manure from vegetarian beasts except perhaps if you know the beast to be ill with a disease transmittable to humans. In your case I'd be more concerned with viable weed seeds. Weeds aren't a great problem for me.. I got the time and I love weeding most days. Most of my weeds anyway are in-blown from other plots so I always expect them. But thanks for the re-assurance on the pathogens though. I'd hate to grow my own crops and then find I make my family ill. Ed Ed, your biggest concern should be whether or not the horse's paddock was sprayed with a broadleaf herbicide. The herbicide will pass harmlessly through the horse and wipe out you garden. Check with the source of your manure, it would be heartbreaking to have that happen. Cheers, Steve FarmI wrote last Oct. "I also spread horse poop as it comes (often almost still steaming) straight onto garden beds and it results in a huge worm population explosion." I might mention that she is still with us, which argues favorably for the use of fresh manure. Most will caution against getting fresh manure on the edible parts of the plant (touching or splashed) for at least 3 months. More often the advice is to work fresh manure into the ground 3 months before planting. Standard procedure is to compost (hot or cold) for 6 months before use, or to incorporate it into the soil in the fall. -- - Billy There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Will Rogers http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
Ed ex@directory wrote:
No, I not no expert scientist or nothing nor read scientific papers. I am just a gardener. But I see a few articles on the web that says if you maintain a hot heap then it will kill pathogens.. If you run a cold heap then these things are not killed off with the heat. Hence my concern. If there is nothing to kill off, then why worry. Many compost heaps have diseased plant material that can harm plants. There is a concern then. But non-caninvore and non-omnivore waste is not a major concern. The hydrogen sulfide, methane, ammonia, and carbon dioxide given off by fresh manure are concerns in hot or cold compost heaps. Horse manure is a solid waste excluded from federal regulation because it neither contains significant amounts of listed hazardous components, nor exhibits hazardous properties. C. tetani is reportedly found in equine manure, but does not represent a source of significant public health risk. Many common equine helminths (worms, bots, etc.) are pathogenic to domestic animals but are not pathogenic to man. Generally speaking, horse guts do not contain the 120 viruses and constituents of concern in human, dog and cat feces (carnivores and omnivores). Most viruses with zoonotic potential (animals infecting humans) are not found in horse wastes. Pathogens of primary concern are waterborne microorganisms that usually follow ingestion pathways into the body. Transmission can also occur through direct oral-fecal exposure. These include Cryptosporidium parvum , Giardia duodenalis, Campylocbacter spp, Salmonella spp., pathogenic strains of E. coli, andYersinia spp. By far, C. parvum and Giardia are the two of most concern because they have very low thresholds of infectious dose. People infected by these organisms may exhibit a range of symptoms from mild abdominal discomfort to death, especially among the very young, elderly, and people with immunologically suppressed systems. Neither of these organisms can be destroyed easily with traditional water treatment processes. So if you use horse manure, make sure the people that gathered it washed their hands after using a toilet. They and their pets are much more of a concern than the horse manure itself. -- Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA - http://rhodyman.net |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote: Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored: http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html For "highly", read "slightly"! I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very old and immunosuppressed. If you look at the reference you gave, most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants. All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to a wide range of them. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message o.uk... I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? Don't know anything about this hot or cold compost business. We don't even have a bin, just a compost heap at the back of our garden (it's sort of contained by two sides of a rotting fence and a neighbour's stone outhouse) and have been 'mining' this from the bottom for the last 25 years. We dig it out from the bottom, then riddle it through a garden sieve, and use it on our garden and allotments. Everything organic, such as meat and veg bits from the kitchen goes into it, as well as dead bodies of rats and mice our cats catch, and feathers of pheasants we find on the road and prepare for the table, and poo and stuff we find in the garden. Also any other unpleasant thing, like food that has gone off. We cover the top of the heap with grass cuttings when we mow the lawn, and just keep piling the stuff on. It seems to take about 3 years for the stuff at the top to de-percolate down to the bottom. We collect horse manure and pile it in heaps nearby and when it rots down enough we shovel it onto the garden and allotments. I haven't heard of anyone getting sick from using home-made compost. WARNING: over the last year or so, horse manure is to be avoided, because apparently horse owners and farmers are using a new toxic weedkiller which the horses ingest in the field when grazing, and it passes through their gut and if you use the manure, it will kill your plants off. I understand that this will be discussed on Friday in Gardener's Question Time, BBC4, http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006...sodes/upcoming someone |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
Ed wrote:
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? Ed (South-East UK) Horse dung hot, horse dung cold, horse dung in the heap 9 weeks old. I run horses and use their manure in the garden all the time. There are precious few if any pathogens in horse manure that will harm a human. I know people who spend their lives shovelling dung daily without a mask and it does them no harm. Hot composting is to kill weed seeds, microorganisms are your friends. David |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
At the risk of sounding like a nouveau Victor Meldrew, what's gone
wrong with us? I had my hands in fresh horse manure a few months ago when I helped a friend muck out his stables. My dog was there and thoroughly enjoyed eating horse poo - don't ask - it's a dog thing. I did try to stop him but that was only a bit more effective as stopping a gourmand access to free cakes and chocolate ;) I'm up to date with tetanus and have been since about 5 years old. What's the problem? Anyone gardening should be... more likely to get it from soil than horses. Or rusty nails. Stood on them when I was a kid, and Kate Humble's older brother (yes, she of Springwatch) threw an electric fencing stake javelin-style at me by accident once and I still have the scar on my knee. Immune systems need to be built up, or grown: you won't get one unless you do the work. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
wrote: In article , Jeff Layman wrote: Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored: http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html For "highly", read "slightly"! I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very old and immunosuppressed. If you look at the reference you gave, most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants. In the Odwall Apple juice case an 18 month old infant died. In the Dole spinach case, 3 octagenarians died, and in the latest, Nestle Toll House Refrigerated Cookie Dough, no one died. However, it is reported that e. coli O157:H7 really opens the sluices at both ends. Maybe not deadly, but not a walk in the park, either. The FDA suggested that you "contact your health care professional immediately, if you or your family have recently eaten recalled cookie dough and have had stomach cramps, vomiting, or diarrhea, with or without bloody stools." 'Nuff said. All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to a wide range of them. Regards, Nick Maclaren. -- - Billy There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Will Rogers http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
"Steve Peek" wrote Ed, your biggest concern should be whether or not the horse's paddock was sprayed with a broadleaf herbicide. The herbicide will pass harmlessly through the horse and wipe out you garden. Check with the source of your manure, it would be heartbreaking to have that happen. Yes, indeed. Farmyard or stable manure is wonderful stuff if you can get it, but there's one particular herbicide persisting in manure that has caused quite serious problems for some allotmenteers and gardeners in recent years. There's info on the RHS site: http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile...ler-manure.asp It can also be quite difficult to actually find out if any particular load is 'clean', unless the source can be absolutely certain that all their feed and bedding is clear too, because of buying and selling of hay and silage feed. One case I know of locally happened where cattle manure from one farm where they didn't use this stuff was affected, unbeknownst to the farmer, due to contaminated feed and hay bought in from elsewhere. -- Sue |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article
, EastneyEnder wrote: At the risk of sounding like a nouveau Victor Meldrew, what's gone wrong with us? I had my hands in fresh horse manure a few months ago when I helped a friend muck out his stables. My dog was there and thoroughly enjoyed eating horse poo - don't ask - it's a dog thing. I did try to stop him but that was only a bit more effective as stopping a gourmand access to free cakes and chocolate ;) I'm up to date with tetanus and have been since about 5 years old. What's the problem? Anyone gardening should be... more likely to get it from soil than horses. Or rusty nails. Stood on them when I was a kid, and Kate Humble's older brother (yes, she of Springwatch) threw an electric fencing stake javelin-style at me by accident once and I still have the scar on my knee. Immune systems need to be built up, or grown: you won't get one unless you do the work. My kids in sand box growing up with cat shit. Blood feces urine = life. Bill no asthma here -- Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA http://prototype.nytimes.com/gst/articleSkimmer/ |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
Ed wrote:
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? Ed (South-East UK) An organic farmer (US) that previously posted here said he was concerned with contamination with a potent insecticide used to keep flies down. He would not use it on his food crops. Frank |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
"EastneyEnder" wrote in message
... At the risk of sounding like a nouveau Victor Meldrew, what's gone wrong with us? I had my hands in fresh horse manure a few months ago when I helped a friend muck out his stables. My dog was there and thoroughly enjoyed eating horse poo - don't ask - it's a dog thing. I did try to stop him but that was only a bit more effective as stopping a gourmand access to free cakes and chocolate ;) I'm up to date with tetanus and have been since about 5 years old. What's the problem? Anyone gardening should be... more likely to get it from soil than horses. Or rusty nails. Stood on them when I was a kid, and Kate Humble's older brother (yes, she of Springwatch) threw an electric fencing stake javelin-style at me by accident once and I still have the scar on my knee. Immune systems need to be built up, or grown: you won't get one unless you do the work. Thank God for a sensible post at long last on horse manure Get a life some of you. My daughter and son in law bred Arabs and 'were up to their arms' in horse muck so to speak for years. Never did any harm Little story about being toooooooooooooooooooooooo careful and clean. Some friends had two daughters. "Spotlessly clean" all the time, as was the house. If one daughter fell over and dirtied her dress, BOTH were washed and changed clothes. Those two girls were always going down with colds or what ever there was about. No immune system to fight anything off. -- Mike The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association www.rneba.org.uk Luxury Self Catering on the Isle of Wight? www.shanklinmanormews.co.uk |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
"EastneyEnder" wrote in message ... At the risk of sounding like a nouveau Victor Meldrew, what's gone wrong with us? I had my hands in fresh horse manure a few months ago when I helped a friend muck out his stables. My dog was there and thoroughly enjoyed eating horse poo - don't ask - it's a dog thing. I did try to stop him but that was only a bit more effective as stopping a gourmand access to free cakes and chocolate ;) I'm up to date with tetanus and have been since about 5 years old. What's the problem? Anyone gardening should be... more likely to get it from soil than horses. Or rusty nails. Stood on them when I was a kid, and Kate Humble's older brother (yes, she of Springwatch) threw an electric fencing stake javelin-style at me by accident once and I still have the scar on my knee. Immune systems need to be built up, or grown: you won't get one unless you do the work. There seems to be a lot of bull manure in this thread about horse manure. mark |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
wrote:
In article , Jeff Layman wrote: Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored: http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html For "highly", read "slightly"! Depends. May be true for neonatal meningitis (1:2000), but certainly not for UTI. Quote "Uropathogenic E. coli (UPEC) cause 90% of the urinary tract infections (UTI) in anatomically-normal, unobstructed urinary tracts.". I am amazed that the figure is so high. There are a lot of women out there with UTIs caused by UPEC. I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very old and immunosuppressed. I'm not arguing about how dangerous it is, merely commenting on pathogenicity. I've not had E. coli gut problems, but have had Salmonella, so can speak from experience about the pathogenicity of bacteria affecting the gut. Certainly not dangerous, but very debilitating, especially in a tropical climate. If you look at the reference you gave, most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants. True for neonatal meningitis (couldn't really be anything else with that name!). but not so for UTI - see above quote. All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to a wide range of them. I definitely agree with you on that. Constant exposure to low levels of bacteria is needed to keep the immune system ticking over properly. "Use it or lose it" applies here! -- Jeff |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote: Depends. May be true for neonatal meningitis (1:2000), but certainly not for UTI. Quote "Uropathogenic E. coli (UPEC) cause 90% of the urinary tract infections (UTI) in anatomically-normal, unobstructed urinary tracts.". I am amazed that the figure is so high. There are a lot of women out there with UTIs caused by UPEC. I believe that you have misunderstood that. What I have been told and read is that ALL variants are uropathogenic, if they establish there, and the vast majority of such infections are normal gut flora that have got into the wrong place. And it's not rare in men, either! So what it means is that 90% of such UTIs are E. coli, variant unknown. They don't usually bother to serotype further, as it doesn't affect the treatment. So one recommendation should definitely be not to indulge in kinky practices with fresh horse manure :-) More seriously, that is the reason for the various hand washing and body washing order recommendations, and instructions to parents on how to bathe children, especially girls. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
"EastneyEnder" wrote in message ... At the risk of sounding like a nouveau Victor Meldrew, what's gone wrong with us? I had my hands in fresh horse manure a few months ago when I helped a friend muck out his stables. My dog was there and thoroughly enjoyed eating horse poo - don't ask - it's a dog thing. I get horse poop & sit it in a composter for 6-12 months cold to break down. My dogs also enjoy a tasty bit of horse dung. rob |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
wrote in message news:h3kt9j$1f6
Bob Hobden wrote: Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about anything else of concern. Try anthrax. And the Hendra Virus which is extremely virulent. But I use lots of horse manure and I don't bother composting it at all. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
On 15 July, 17:40, wrote:
A lot of such rubbish is written by Merkins, And, indeed, our local authority who two years ago warned people to scald the produce from their allotments because "95% of home grown produce is contaminated with salmonella" |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
"Billy" wrote in message
FarmI wrote last Oct. "I also spread horse poop as it comes (often almost still steaming) straight onto garden beds and it results in a huge worm population explosion." I might mention that she is still with us, which argues favorably for the use of fresh manure. Yeah, I'm still here. Nothing wrong with me other than the red spots all over, the squint, the gummy jaws, the baldness and the limp......... |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
FarmI ask@itshall be given wrote: And the Hendra Virus which is extremely virulent. Grin :-) http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/m...ages/nipah.htm "The natural reservoir for Hendra virus is thought to be flying foxes" "Only three human cases of Hendra virus disease have been recognized." Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
"George.com" wrote in message
My dogs also enjoy a tasty bit of horse dung. Dogs really can be such nasty little snots at times. The other day, I went to visit my neighbour. I give her eggs, she gives me horse poop and we both think we get the best part of the deal. One of her tenants who rented one of the houses on her farm died and the tenant's Corgi ended up being adopted by my neighbour. The Corgi was lying on the Persian rug under an old church pew in the entry hall and chewing something with real relish. When we investigated it was a half moon shaped thing which turned out to be a paring from the horse's hoof from when the farrier had shod the horses that morning. I usually have a cast iron stomach but for some reason seeing the Corgi doing this really turned my stomach. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
"Frank" wrote in message ... Ed wrote: I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few percent. For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free. In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock areas where the horses pass their days. The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period. But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old? Ed (South-East UK) An organic farmer (US) that previously posted here said he was concerned with contamination with a potent insecticide used to keep flies down. He would not use it on his food crops. Frank I think that may be the bigger problem, it is common in the southern US to use a feed through larvacide that is usually some kind of diflubenzuron compound and some barn managers sprinkle the manure with Golden Malrin which is a carbamate. Billy might be able to expand on the hazards of these products. I have horses and goats and don't use these products in an effort to keep the manure clean ; ). Chickens are the best natural fly control around barns but unfortunately they don't leave any manure to fertilize with. basilisk |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
wrote in message news:h3n4d7
FarmI ask@itshall be given wrote: And the Hendra Virus which is extremely virulent. Grin :-) Yep http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/m...ages/nipah.htm "The natural reservoir for Hendra virus is thought to be flying foxes" Hmmmm CDC. An American site. I wonder who it was that wrote: "A lot of such rubbish is written by Merkins, who manage to make Little Englanders look intelligent. You need to be able to judge which authors have Clue and which don't." ;-P But since you quote the CDC, their article also says "humans became ill after exposure to body fluids and excretions of horses infected with Hendra virus" "Only three human cases of Hendra virus disease have been recognized." At last count, three people have died of Hendra Virus. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
FarmI ask@itshall be given wrote: Hmmmm CDC. An American site. I wonder who it was that wrote: "A lot of such rubbish is written by Merkins, who manage to make Little Englanders look intelligent. You need to be able to judge which authors have Clue and which don't." ;-P I did. The CDC is a respected organisation, which doesn't mean that its pronouncements are gospel. The Merkins I was referring to are a different class of Web-making pest, as undesirable as RSM. At last count, three people have died of Hendra Virus. Let's all start panicking now :-) Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
it is a trade off, but organically produced food is safer according to this
report...... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31766160...h-food_safety/ "Avoiding MRSA Follow these tips to help reduce your risk of exposure to MRSA in meats: Shop smarter Look for the USDA organic seal. Organic meat might be less likely to have antibiotic-resistant or disease-causing organisms, as the animal hasn't been fed antibiotics, hormones to promote growth, or animal by-products. Other labels, such as no antibiotics added, are not verified by independent testing. Log on to eatwellguide.org to search for listings of stores and restaurants that offer no-antibiotic-use, grass-fed, or organic meats. Stock up on nonmeat protein sources such as beans, lentils, and tofu and swap them in for meat now and then. Visit prevention.com/veggies for recipe ideas. " "You may not have the same close contact with meat that a processing plant worker has, but scientists warn there is reason for concern: Most of us handle meat daily, as we bread chicken cutlets, trim fat from pork, or form chopped beef into burgers. Cooking does kill the microbe, but MRSA thrives on skin, so you can contract it by touching infected raw meat when you have a cut on your hand, explains Stuart Levy, MD, a Tufts University professor of microbiology and medicine. MRSA also flourishes in nasal passages, so touching your nose after touching meat gives the bug another way into your body, adds Smith. Tainted meat exposed Extensive research in Europe and Asia has found MRSA in many food animal species, and in the past year, US researchers have begun testing meat sold here. Scientists at Louisiana State University Agricultural Center tested 120 cuts of locally purchased meat and found MRSA in 4 percent of the pork and 1 percent of the beef. A University of Maryland scientist found it in 1 out of 300 pork samples from the Washington, DC, area. And a study in Canada (from which we import thousands of tons of meat annually) found MRSA in 9 percent of 212 pork samples. The percentages may be small, but according to the USDA, Americans eat more than 180 million pounds of meat every day. "When you consider the tiny size of the meat studies, the fact that they found any contamination at all is amazing," says Steven Roach, public health program director for Food Animal Concerns Trust. In some cases, the tainted meat probably came from infected animals; in others, already infected humans could have passed on MRSA to the meat during processing. Regardless of where it originated, even a small proportion of contaminated meat could mean a tremendous amount of MRSA out there. "We need more US research to figure out what's going on," says Roach." Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
wrote: In article , FarmI ask@itshall be given wrote: And the Hendra Virus which is extremely virulent. Grin :-) http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/m...ages/nipah.htm "The natural reservoir for Hendra virus is thought to be flying foxes" "Only three human cases of Hendra virus disease have been recognized." Regards, Nick Maclaren. Hendra virus (formerly called equine morbillivirus) is a member of the family Paramyxoviridae. Nipah virus, also a member of the family Paramyxoviridae, is related but not identical to Hendra virus. Funny, when I read this page, it says,"Two of the three human patients infected with Hendra virus died (Australia). During the Nipah virus disease outbreak in 1998-99 (Malaysia and Singapore), 257 patients were infected with the virus. About 40% of those patients who entered hospitals with serious nervous disease died from the illness." -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843430.stm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go |
Compost Heap. Horse Manure. Pathogens.
In article ,
wrote: In article , FarmI ask@itshall be given wrote: Hmmmm CDC. An American site. I wonder who it was that wrote: "A lot of such rubbish is written by Merkins, who manage to make Little Englanders look intelligent. You need to be able to judge which authors have Clue and which don't." ;-P I did. The CDC is a respected organisation, which doesn't mean that its pronouncements are gospel. The Merkins I was referring to are a different class of Web-making pest, as undesirable as RSM. What do Regional Sales Managers have to do with anything? At last count, three people have died of Hendra Virus. Let's all start panicking now :-) Do many people in the UK show signs of "Mad Cow Disease"? Regards, Nick Maclaren. -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7843430.stm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go |
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